Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-meeting-policy-04.txt> (High level guidance for the meeting policy of the IETF) to Best Current Practice
Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> Fri, 20 April 2018 14:18 UTC
Return-Path: <rlb@ipv.sx>
X-Original-To: mtgvenue@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: mtgvenue@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C281D1270B4 for <mtgvenue@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 07:18:35 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.909
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xItEQCGA9FDy for <mtgvenue@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 07:18:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-ot0-x22a.google.com (mail-ot0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2F701277BB for <mtgvenue@ietf.org>; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 07:18:32 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-ot0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id w2-v6so9777666otj.0 for <mtgvenue@ietf.org>; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 07:18:32 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ipv-sx.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1b+9IUdSZ3jMGcKwsiaYb4sbmk72azzGAE0rmY+9qtE=; b=do4KabUT+oZi/wADvatRdUaHJ2G40ifAxRMoQEgNybnVkSOPgZWtEfgys0Fdj4Rrsc cO921KWPWNWiFutlWsrjqP4ru67spcIhmZ0vkzVp5iElLlofkFfwZMKWpo0xqADwHSjc Tn2C5KJp0tNAcHOKjXiqwAJ3yJETqifsmB+X1dJFZM+iaI74O0WnXpG1kePY5MwKrf9D mMtHeR8HbbMtdIIBi2Ji65RW07eXpHc+lzdcbpHnMfef4XaJwCrsR1MWBo82QEsvNyKr KMhsqawWL5myPzHG4UNHezheip9w1k19H4UnLZaZPzQ3Vjqon1a64XBBCVYqemYpQR/7 JFoQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1b+9IUdSZ3jMGcKwsiaYb4sbmk72azzGAE0rmY+9qtE=; b=mRaYYPTWNChA/Fu2cfprNVivb+9Op+YzygeOUERFSAhTcdbujtg7jrPiuKNsH4Ry9Y EF+D29QBi+JvUo0AWNfsB8frdy2qxbKq93Izj0PZwVER+7T8tn9/RzlChFtkJlpk7Map 7Kgoij5YGr/tDU107e0HqAeDqZz2YYE8B69YmAzEZ01Rh2hBJUq8hI/93ua86hn4WKu6 G//xOPSyBmDyAahfFjs8atwgp2uIUxbRdKkqVorqrI6Ukpxqfz8AoRt/5UPruAXReDOT +1zkO4uJwH/Uvyp+pAjdVR9HbNxzOEMzFtblrzVbCluzGuiai/gdD86tJW56fYHlSnjz zXMw==
X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tCsAfxmi7tw+4kcLzMucTPyJjQLAhzJRR4DNBQIqi5IhzTPSs6n L5cJq9X1d8u/xN9Zs7+fKm6SjaG02ueSS28CNpD1fQ==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx49l1k3t1jxaR5eAalyQ4cSXl1bwQ9HFRivOSLdDqS14pPPirfG0mHd4BlSWXzexGqv2XchViYhg/8nCh9TTvS4=
X-Received: by 2002:a9d:3387:: with SMTP id u7-v6mr5339977otc.103.1524233912011; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 07:18:32 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.201.93.90 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 07:18:31 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <CABcZeBPXUqe6ixF+Yx7P6E3Jt3fGjAMUrP368DTedGq-O-T61Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <152295916074.25912.932711807710247299.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <20180419013457.fq4ruqj7p4lfwxb4@mx4.yitter.info> <CABcZeBPXUqe6ixF+Yx7P6E3Jt3fGjAMUrP368DTedGq-O-T61Q@mail.gmail.com>
From: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 10:18:31 -0400
Message-ID: <CAL02cgSrdhEtPUQMU80zhr6Xg2KyP=Fi-t7a0De6hkO3_3cDZg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Cc: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@anvilwalrusden.com>, mtgvenue@ietf.org, IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e160ee056a485ce3"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mtgvenue/CiDw7UuEAky7A62pnkH-nC8vb5M>
Subject: Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-meeting-policy-04.txt> (High level guidance for the meeting policy of the IETF) to Best Current Practice
X-BeenThere: mtgvenue@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: "List for email discussion of the IAOC meeting venue selection process." <mtgvenue.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/mtgvenue>, <mailto:mtgvenue-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/mtgvenue/>
List-Post: <mailto:mtgvenue@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:mtgvenue-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mtgvenue>, <mailto:mtgvenue-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 14:18:36 -0000
Eric and Andrew have hit on a good point here. It's important for this policy to balance aspirations of a broader participant base against practical realities of getting work done. While we might aspire to a world where a 1-1-1 distribution aligns well with our participant base and is also cost effective, that appears to be not quite the world we live in. I'm fine giving the IAOC the brief to work toward that objective, but if we do that, we also need to give them the flexibility to make pragmatic decisions. --Richard On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 8:36 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote: > Andrew, > > Thanks for raising this. > > While the stated rationale in S 2. is to spread travel pain around, > I don't really think this gets us to 1-1-1-*. > > First, if you look at historical demographics, over the past 12 IETFs, > we have 23% Asia, 26% Europe, and 42% NA). Put another way, the last > time we had > 1/3 Asian attendance was IETF 94 in Yokohama, and the > last time we had less than 1/3 NA attendance was IETF 79 in Beijing. > So, a policy that was designed to match per-continent attendance would > be more like 2-1-1-*. > > Second, continent is not a very good proxy for travel pain, both > because Asia is so large (for instance, the shortest Tokyo to > Singapore route is 7:25 out and 7:10 back (on JAL) and the shortest > Tokyo - Honolulu route (ANA) is 7:20/8:10, so not really much > different at all) and because flight connections are such a big > contributor ( for instance, SFO-BKK is almost 20 hours, whereas > SFO-NRT is 11). > > Bottom line, if this is supposed to be real requirements rather > than just aspirations, I think it needs a rethink. > > -Ekr > > > On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 6:34 PM, Andrew Sullivan <ajs@anvilwalrusden.com> > wrote: > >> Dear IESG, >> >> On Thu, Apr 05, 2018 at 01:12:40PM -0700, The IESG wrote: >> > >> > The IESG has received a request from the Meeting Venue WG (mtgvenue) to >> > consider the following document: - 'High level guidance for the meeting >> > policy of the IETF' >> > <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-meeting-policy-04.txt> as Best Current Practice >> >> In a recent discussion, the IAOC came to realise that the documents >> draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process and >> draft-ietf-mtgvenue-meeting-policy may be in some tension. One of >> them requires the IASA to balance meeting venues over time, and the >> other has requirements that a meeting must meet. >> >> One possible difficulty that arises from the combination is if one >> region turns out to be vastly more expensive than others. In that >> case, some criteria for each venue may not be met in one region. The >> result might also be financially ruinous for the IETF in general. >> >> The current IAOC interprets the drafts such that any of the criteria >> except those in section 3.1 of >> draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process may be traded against >> any other, over several years if need be, in order to meet the >> geographic distribution policy described in >> draft-ietf-mtgvenue-meeting-policy. Assuming the documents are >> published as they are currently written, we will use that >> interpretation as governing IASA implementation decisions. It is >> worth noting that, among the criteria that could be traded are those >> of affordability. If that is not the interpretation of the IETF >> community, then some clarification is needed to the text. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Andrew Sullivan >> for the IAOC >> >> -- >> Andrew Sullivan >> ajs@anvilwalrusden.com >> >> >
- [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-meetin… The IESG
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Russ Housley
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Richard Barnes
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Lou Berger
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Lou Berger
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Adam Roach
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Fred Baker
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Russ Housley
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Randy Bush
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Jeff Tantsura
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Lloyd Wood
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Suresh Krishnan
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Suresh Krishnan
- [Mtgvenue] Venue definition and distribution comm… Suresh Krishnan
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Venue definition and distribution … Lloyd Wood
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Russ Housley
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Alissa Cooper