Re: [Mtgvenue] Internet Access during IETF Meetings

[Toerless Eckert <[e-mail]>]

On Wed, Nov 22, 2023 at 10:40:40AM -0800, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> 
> Huh? The question at hand isn't whether censorship is better or worse
> in some absolute sense but whether the filtering in question "materially
> impacts" > the Internet use of IETF participants, and filtering in schools and
> libraries does not.

Sure, but we need to be very careful to closely evaluate only that impact and not
get into making moral judegments about othrer countries policies, which is where
i felt Michaels comment was heading.

I for once have been to enough places with so crappy Internet that it easily doubles as
no Internet at all - without firewalls.  If i would have had wanted to do hackathon
with my lab at home remotely, i would have been on the other end of the spectrum
of how much Internet i needed during IETF. So lets at least make sure we do a
good analysis of how much and what type of Internet use is required for people to
come in person.

Cheers
    Toerless

> -Ekr
> 
> On the "how many no shows would we have":
> > Lets also remember that because of political issues in the USA such as the
> > entity list,
> > likely a relevant number of participants choose to participate only
> > remotely. And we did
> > not even ask or try to vet such a factor for participants not willing/able
> > to come. So
> > if we are trying to figure out what amount of attendees would have to not
> > show up
> > because of some other factors such as Internet blocking, we should at
> > least ask ourselves
> > if it is appropriate for the IETF to take one factor into account, and the
> > other not.
> >
> > Cheers
> >     Toerless
> >
> > > sEkr
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Aka: Yes, your two points sound obvious from 50,000 feet, but i think
> > such
> > > > arguments go nowhere else but put us into a corner of hypocrites.
> > > >
> > > > My main concern going to Thailand again is btw.: that we again will
> > not see
> > > > the ocean from the conference location. Even crappy old San Francisco
> > had
> > > > that
> > > > to offer. Not to speak of Singapore. And in Berlin the river was around
> > > > the corner
> > > > with a lovely mooring location for river boats ... *sob* (water
> > addict...
> > > > ;-).
> > > >
> > > > > I have experience with using git+ssh://github.com access within one
> > > > country
> > > > > containing a national firewall.  It was interesting: the first
> > kilobyte
> > > > or
> > > > > two was fine, but then bandwidth declined to bytes/minute.  That's
> > not
> > > > > compatible with doing IETF work.
> > > >
> > > > Sounds like a firewall i have experienced too. One may note that the
> > degree
> > > > by which you can get through the firewall also depends on who you are
> > and
> > > > what request for policies you put in. Thats why i previously asked if
> > we
> > > > want to make our judegements against what a typical residential access
> > > > would
> > > > be or against the policies we likely could get when preparing
> > accordingly.
> > > >
> > > > >     > PS: I also have the impression that some of this work is being
> > > > inspired
> > > > >     > by people who are complaining about a site selection result
> > without
> > > > >     > having properly understood RFC 8718.  It might help (though
> > colour
> > > > me
> > > > >     > sceptical) to remind such people what the actual text says
> > about
> > > > what
> > > > >     > is and is not actually mandatory.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think that the LLC has struggled with finding a way to communicate
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > > community what kind of tradeoffs they are making.   For instance,
> > there
> > > > was a
> > > > > fair bit of noise from a few people about the lateness in announcing
> > > > > Brisbane.  That it significantly affected flight prices.  (I'm not
> > > > convinced
> > > > > that is real; but I live in a market with poor competition, so I
> > accept
> > > > the
> > > > > premise).  Had the LLC communicated that the location was "east
> > coast of
> > > > Australia"
> > > > > [with some subject to change], maybe people would have reacted
> > > > differently.
> > > > > In particular, some people might have said, "too rich for me", and
> > then
> > > > > decided to plan for San Francisco/Prague or Vancouver.
> > > >
> > > > I am always cautious to make strong judgement calls because i do not
> > have
> > > > a good
> > > > understanding of the actual amount of work that went into all of this.
> > And
> > > > whenever
> > > > i had a chance to ask in person, i was most often surprise how much
> > more
> > > > it was
> > > > than i thought.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers
> > > >     Toerless
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Michael Richardson <[e-mail]>, Sandelman Software Works
> > > > >  -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-                      *I*LIKE*TRAINS*
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > >
> > > >
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> >
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> >

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