Re: [Mtgvenue] Internet Access during IETF Meetings

[Eric Rescorla <[e-mail]>]

On Wed, Nov 22, 2023 at 10:17 AM Toerless Eckert <[e-mail]> wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 22, 2023 at 09:03:38AM -0800, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> > > How does banning books about slavery and evolution in certain US states
> > > count in on 2 ?
> >
> > Citation needed. Perhaps you're referring to books being taken out of
> > libraries or schools? If so, that's not something I approve of, but it's
> > quite different from what Michael is talking about.
>
> Yes, i was referring to libraries/schools. Sorry if "banning" was not the
> appropriate word to represent that condition.
>
> And... we can play "my censorship is different from your censorship" all
> day long,
> but it will still look hypocritical when one focusses more one another
> countries
> censorship than ones own. Especially where that censorship is supported by
> a majority
> of the public of such countries.
>

Huh? The question at hand isn't whether censorship is better or worse
in some absolute sense but whether the filtering in question "materially
impacts"
the Internet use of IETF participants, and filtering in schools and
libraries does not.

-Ekr

On the "how many no shows would we have":
> Lets also remember that because of political issues in the USA such as the
> entity list,
> likely a relevant number of participants choose to participate only
> remotely. And we did
> not even ask or try to vet such a factor for participants not willing/able
> to come. So
> if we are trying to figure out what amount of attendees would have to not
> show up
> because of some other factors such as Internet blocking, we should at
> least ask ourselves
> if it is appropriate for the IETF to take one factor into account, and the
> other not.
>
> Cheers
>     Toerless
>
> > sEkr
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Aka: Yes, your two points sound obvious from 50,000 feet, but i think
> such
> > > arguments go nowhere else but put us into a corner of hypocrites.
> > >
> > > My main concern going to Thailand again is btw.: that we again will
> not see
> > > the ocean from the conference location. Even crappy old San Francisco
> had
> > > that
> > > to offer. Not to speak of Singapore. And in Berlin the river was around
> > > the corner
> > > with a lovely mooring location for river boats ... *sob* (water
> addict...
> > > ;-).
> > >
> > > > I have experience with using git+ssh://github.com access within one
> > > country
> > > > containing a national firewall.  It was interesting: the first
> kilobyte
> > > or
> > > > two was fine, but then bandwidth declined to bytes/minute.  That's
> not
> > > > compatible with doing IETF work.
> > >
> > > Sounds like a firewall i have experienced too. One may note that the
> degree
> > > by which you can get through the firewall also depends on who you are
> and
> > > what request for policies you put in. Thats why i previously asked if
> we
> > > want to make our judegements against what a typical residential access
> > > would
> > > be or against the policies we likely could get when preparing
> accordingly.
> > >
> > > >     > PS: I also have the impression that some of this work is being
> > > inspired
> > > >     > by people who are complaining about a site selection result
> without
> > > >     > having properly understood RFC 8718.  It might help (though
> colour
> > > me
> > > >     > sceptical) to remind such people what the actual text says
> about
> > > what
> > > >     > is and is not actually mandatory.
> > > >
> > > > I think that the LLC has struggled with finding a way to communicate
> to
> > > the
> > > > community what kind of tradeoffs they are making.   For instance,
> there
> > > was a
> > > > fair bit of noise from a few people about the lateness in announcing
> > > > Brisbane.  That it significantly affected flight prices.  (I'm not
> > > convinced
> > > > that is real; but I live in a market with poor competition, so I
> accept
> > > the
> > > > premise).  Had the LLC communicated that the location was "east
> coast of
> > > Australia"
> > > > [with some subject to change], maybe people would have reacted
> > > differently.
> > > > In particular, some people might have said, "too rich for me", and
> then
> > > > decided to plan for San Francisco/Prague or Vancouver.
> > >
> > > I am always cautious to make strong judgement calls because i do not
> have
> > > a good
> > > understanding of the actual amount of work that went into all of this.
> And
> > > whenever
> > > i had a chance to ask in person, i was most often surprise how much
> more
> > > it was
> > > than i thought.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >     Toerless
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Michael Richardson <[e-mail]>, Sandelman Software Works
> > > >  -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-                      *I*LIKE*TRAINS*
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Mtgvenue mailing list
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mtgvenue
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > ---
> > > [e-mail]
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Mtgvenue mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mtgvenue
> > >
>
> --
> ---
> [e-mail]
>