Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same, was draft-yao-dnsext-identical-resolution-02 comment
Doug Barton <dougb@dougbarton.us> Fri, 18 February 2011 22:08 UTC
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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 14:09:13 -0800
From: Doug Barton <dougb@dougbarton.us>
Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/
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Subject: Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same, was draft-yao-dnsext-identical-resolution-02 comment
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On 02/18/2011 07:12, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > no hat > > On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 02:36:53PM +0000, Suzanne Woolf wrote: >> I *think* Andrew's text above says no, we can't reasonably help >> registry operators if we leave applications with the same problem they >> have now (knowing for themselves that string $x needs to map to string >> $y). But rather than argue with something he may not have actually >> said, I'm looking for further comments on this point. > > That wasn't really what I was trying to say, so I guess I better clarify. I think what you have here is very clear, at least it helped me understand your concern quite a bit better. > I'm trying to keep in mind two things at once. > > On the one hand, we have a narrow issue about the DNS and > provisioning. And the idea is that we need to make it easier to say > "When you encounter alias {A[1], A[2]. . .A[n]} for some value of n, > then that is mostly functionally equivalent to encountering FQDN F." > This isn't really that big a deal, and we have at least two > complimentary proposals on how to do it. There are some tricks in > stating exactly what "mostly" and "functionally equivalent" mean, but > I think this isn't that hard. > > But if we think about this in the larger sense, we have to confront > the reason why people want the above. It is surely not just that > people want to have more ways to write the same name. It is rather > that naive users on the Internet will try to use such "alternative > spelling" names, and we want to help the operators of sites that are > the target of such attempted use to make their lives easier. > > Therefore, if we deliver an answer that makes it trivial to add all > these additional ways of referring to "the same host" or "the same > resource" or something like that, we cannot simply ignore the > potential issues for how the addressed services are going to manage > this plethora of names. This is in fact exactly why I am so concerned > that we have not attracted broad-based attention from the applications > community: we need to hear from them, if we mess up, "Hey, DNS > weenies! You just made my life impossible." For if we do that, we > will have failed in the real goal of this work. Agreed up to here. > Consider that the mail admins and the web admins could be completely > different parts of the organization in a large enterprise (they were > in a university where I worked). BNAME could have an effect on the > mail admin even if it were just added to help the web admin. These > are practical consequences of a big change in the DNS protocol, and we > have to think about them in the case of adding new aliasing features. > (This is not the same as what happens when you do it with > provisioning: those admins already have to understand their > provisioning and the deployed applications already have rules for > those cases.) Two comments ... First, just because we provide one or more solutions doesn't mean that the registrants of the preferred names will chose to use them. What generally happens with variants now is that either the registry assigns them to the registrant by default, or they are given the option to register them at an additional cost. At that point (for the most part) they also have the option of whether to delegate the variants or not. So IDN registrants are already dealing with these questions, we're just giving them a different set of tools with which to deal with them. > This is why I think just solving the provisioning case, without at > least some way for the applications to know what to do, is not enough. > > I have been very intrigued by the idea of having two-way pointers, so > that if you are a mail server and you're coming up, you can look up > your name and learn how else you might be called. But nobody has > offered a proposal for how to do that nicely, and we haven't heard > from actual application people about whether that's useful or totally > silly. Personally I think that's a really interesting idea, and I will try to work it into my CLONE draft (which I am aiming to have complete before the -00 deadline on March 7). For CLONE the design is that if a CLONE-aware resolver sends a query for a name that is actually a CLONE it gets the fact that it's a CLONE back in the ADDITIONAL section, so it's not impossible to believe that application developers could use that information. What it sounds like may be useful is an additional RR (maybe CLONES) that asks the authority the question you posed above, "What other names are related to this one?" I can think of a couple of complications with that, not the least of which is that if the qname is one of the CLONEs, how do you represent the preferred label in the response (always list it first maybe)? The other problem that comes immediately to mind is what to do when you have multiple labels in a hostname and more than one of them has CLONEs. (Return all the possible variants is likely the correct answer, but depending on user creativity that could get unwieldy.) But back to your original concern, I agree that we don't want to solve one part of the problem in a way that makes other parts of the problem harder (or impossible) to solve. But I think that we have to be careful not to throw our hands up too early, particularly before we've even tried to engage the people who are already dealing with these same issues we're discussing in theory. The common case (at least as far as the IDN issues go) is likely to be a small enough number of variants that the registrants will be perfectly capable of manually configuring the relevant software for all of them. And for those that don't wish to do that they can simply choose to not provision the variants at the registry, just like they do now. hth, Doug -- Nothin' ever doesn't change, but nothin' changes much. -- OK Go Breadth of IT experience, and depth of knowledge in the DNS. Yours for the right price. :) http://SupersetSolutions.com/ _______________________________________________ dnsext mailing list dnsext@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsext
- Re: [dnsext] DNSEXT progress and possible meeting… Vaggelis Segredakis
- Re: [dnsext] DNSEXT progress and possible meeting… Suzanne Woolf
- [dnsext] DNSEXT progress and possible meeting at … Olafur Gudmundsson
- [dnsext] draft-yao-dnsext-identical-resolution-02… Vaggelis Segredakis
- Re: [dnsext] draft-yao-dnsext-identical-resolutio… Suzanne Woolf
- Re: [dnsext] draft-yao-dnsext-identical-resolutio… Vaggelis Segredakis
- Re: [dnsext] draft-yao-dnsext-identical-resolutio… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dnsext] draft-yao-dnsext-identical-resolutio… Suzanne Woolf
- Re: [dnsext] draft-yao-dnsext-identical-resolutio… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dnsext] draft-yao-dnsext-identical-resolutio… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… John Levine
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Jay Ashworth
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… John Levine
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Alex Bligh
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… John R. Levine
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Alex Bligh
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Tony Finch
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Vaggelis Segredakis
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Lawrence Conroy
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Alex Bligh
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… John R. Levine
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… John R. Levine
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Mark Andrews
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Mark Andrews
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Mark Andrews
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Doug Barton
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… John Levine
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Mark Andrews
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Vaggelis Segredakis
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Vaggelis Segredakis
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Vaggelis Segredakis
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Vaggelis Segredakis
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Tony Finch
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Niall O'Reilly
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Danny Mayer
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Vaggelis Segredakis
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Vaggelis Segredakis
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Jay Ashworth
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Jay Ashworth
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Mark Andrews
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Danny Mayer
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Mark Andrews
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Danny Mayer
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Mark Andrews
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Brian Dickson
- [dnsext] SRV and wildcard CNAME Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… John R. Levine
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Danny Mayer
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Suzanne Woolf
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Paul Vixie
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Doug Barton
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Doug Barton
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Mark Andrews
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Doug Barton
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [dnsext] SRV and wildcard CNAME Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Jay Ashworth
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Tony Finch
- Re: [dnsext] SRV and wildcard CNAME Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] SRV and wildcard CNAME Mark Andrews
- Re: [dnsext] SRV and wildcard CNAME Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] SRV and wildcard CNAME Mark Andrews
- Re: [dnsext] SRV and wildcard CNAME Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] SRV and wildcard CNAME Larry Brower
- Re: [dnsext] SRV and wildcard CNAME Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] SRV and wildcard CNAME Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] SRV and wildcard CNAME Mark Andrews
- Re: [dnsext] SRV and wildcard CNAME Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] SRV and wildcard CNAME Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] SRV and wildcard CNAME Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] slave signing, was does making names… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Vaggelis Segredakis
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Masataka Ohta
- [dnsext] bi-directionality Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Tony Finch
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Tony Finch
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Tony Finch
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Donald Eastlake
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Tony Finch
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Tony Finch
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Tony Finch
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Alex Nicoll
- Re: [dnsext] we need help to make names the same,… Tony Finch
- [dnsext] does making names the same NEED protocol… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Alex Bligh
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Suzanne Woolf
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Tony Finch
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Alex Bligh
- Re: [dnsext] slave signing, was does making names… John Levine
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Tony Finch
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Michael Graff
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Brian Dickson
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Ted Hardie
- Re: [dnsext] slave signing, was does making names… John Levine
- Re: [dnsext] slave signing, was does making names… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] the same in old days, was making nam… John Levine
- Re: [dnsext] slave signing, was does making names… John Levine
- Re: [dnsext] the same in old days, was making nam… Alex Bligh
- Re: [dnsext] the same in old days, was making nam… John R. Levine
- Re: [dnsext] the same in old days, was making nam… Alex Bligh
- Re: [dnsext] the same in old days, was making nam… John R. Levine
- Re: [dnsext] the same in old days, was making nam… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [dnsext] the same in old days, was making nam… Ted Hardie
- Re: [dnsext] the same in old days, was making nam… Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [dnsext] the same in old days, was making nam… Ted Hardie
- Re: [dnsext] the same in old days, was making nam… Eric Brunner-Williams
- [dnsext] Terminological precision (was: the same … Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [dnsext] the same in old days, was making nam… Ted Hardie
- Re: [dnsext] does making names the same NEED prot… Olafur Gudmundsson
- Re: [dnsext] the same in old days, was making nam… Doug Barton