Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one week review of a specific change
Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz> Mon, 27 November 2017 15:32 UTC
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From: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>
To: netconf@ietf.org
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 16:32:46 +0100
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References: <987f0de3-00d3-37f0-c919-4fe4f0f16efc@cisco.com> <2F1909ED-61A5-43FC-B2D8-FD08DEF49183@gmail.com> <3138dace-d750-308f-0169-a26e8abce5d1@cisco.com> <5A05A4A4.3000304@tail-f.com> <CABCOCHT_5zHWf3mdNM+8uUd8sqZMKKiwVtr=O4C4BhNrbygNzw@mail.gmail.com> <4e2ff4c7-70bb-280d-b49d-423e70e7f42d@cisco.com> <CABCOCHSYYFrZxC11v_++adG2uCP7urxR=VOKX-+8zXA-qiBCTA@mail.gmail.com> <60763bcf-47d9-d538-f1b3-6d71e3c80d1d@cisco.com> <CABCOCHTEXwhAq6NzoAGHcC-EE19bXJ0kbqPS0hwJB5_+RtOfyg@mail.gmail.com> <e418e007-fbac-029d-9c77-ed33df3d233b@cisco.com> <c2663103-70c2-0f52-f24f-852462509e27@cisco.com> <e41c2a8f-5ed7-9f3e-6dc1-85182c66adbf@cisco.com> <CABCOCHQrSOgGEAPdz5TdGBCGBSPzgAspGRQkgQDr3=H4Xp9JSQ@mail.gmail.com> <d056fdcd-20a8-5459-24ea-81fcfe53e59b@cisco.com> <015101d36513$bba345e0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <CABCOCHTg5x_3=u4fMVtF-Rn1T6+gH2ZLMKeo6z5iekUWNt3RXg@mail.gmail.com> <00a701d365ea$e207f000$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <CABCOCHQHDB_9vQ0W5uA+u__=sezGrVgNtvt==DQhbK1r2MsPUw@mail.gmail.com> <eef4d5a8-4185-24d7-36a7-0f5958804be2@cisco.com> <CABCOCHR-KPG69Ngzc=fb6cmcU4q+SEOt51AX=iYGYJR=pECxPg@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one week review of a specific change
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On Mon, 2017-11-27 at 07:12 -0800, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 2:39 AM, Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> wrote: > > I do get the point that Tom is making here, and have quite a lot of sympathy > > for it. E.g. by automatically allowing the side effects of when/choice > > statements then we are introducing a potential security hole here that > > operators may find hard to be aware of and mitigate. > > It also seems odd to me that a client is allowed to implicitly remove some > > configuration through the side effect of a when/choice statement that > > they are not allowed to delete explicitly. > > The alternative of requiring appropriate access for the side-effects, seems > > like an intuitively safer design, but I also get Andy's concern that > > security isn't useful if it become so unwieldy that nobody uses it. > > So, I guess the question here is, do we have some concrete examples using > > real data models where the extra NACM delete rules would be required? If > > not then perhaps requiring the explicit access for side effects would be > > better. > > > > > Yes -- please provide some examples where it is better to force the operator > to provide extra "delete" rules to allow false-when data nodes to be deleted. > It seems to me that these rules would allow individual data structures to be > removed by the client, that would not otherwise be possible. Here is an example: Module A contains a choice with two cases, say "foo" and "bar". An operator installs an instance of case "foo" and specifies NACM rules so that a non- privileged client cannot remove it. Later, module B is added to the data model, and it augments the choice with another case "baz". If a non-privileged user is now allowed to create an instance of case "baz", he can trick the server into deleting the protected instance of "foo". So, module A may have bullet-proof security considerations and still, side effects from module B create a security hole. Lada > > If 3 data structures need to be in place "when /foo exists" then > deleting 1 or 2 of them directly may not be desirable. Deleting > them all together (i.e., via when-false deletion) may be the intended usage. > > The vendor and operator need to be aware of the data model dependencies. > That said, how come CLI-based configuration does not have this problem? > (Or rather, why has this problem been ignored for so long? Maybe it not that > real?) > > > Thanks, > > Rob > > > > Andy > > > On 25/11/2017 15:53, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > > On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 4:42 AM, t.petch <ietfc@btconnect.com> wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Andy Bierman" <andy@yumaworks.com> > > > > To: "t.petch" <ietfc@btconnect.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 24, 2017 at 3:02 AM, t.petch <ietfc@btconnect.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > <inline> > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom Petch > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Robert Wilton" <rwilton@cisco.com> > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2017 10:44 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Andy, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 22/11/2017 18:09, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 5:41 AM, Benoit Claise wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Rob, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At that points in time, if it clarifies the spec. and the > > > > > > authors > > > > > > > > agree with this, let's do the right thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will add the new text if that is what the WG wants. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having read this draft, I was undecided what the intended behavior > > > > > > > actually should be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The way that Yumapro and Tail-f have implemented this is > > > > reasonable, > > > > > > and > > > > > > > is probably also the way that I would implemented it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But I also think that it would be a reasonable implementation for > > > > a > > > > > > > server to calculate the full change set (taking account of side > > > > > > effects > > > > > > > from when and choice statements) to the datastore before checking > > > > the > > > > > > > "write data node access control" against the resultant change set. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My interpretation is that the RFC text is ambiguous on what the > > > > > > correct > > > > > > > behavior is, and one could make a reasonable argument that the > > > > current > > > > > > > RFC actually specifies that the alternative behavior is correct, > > > > i.e. > > > > > > > requiring delete access even if a node is implicitly changes as a > > > > side > > > > > > > effect. E.g. section 3.2.3 of RFC 6536 states: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the protocol operation would result in the deletion of a > > > > > > datastore > > > > > > > node and the user does not have "delete" access permission for > > > > > > that > > > > > > > node, the protocol operation is rejected with an > > > > "access-denied" > > > > > > > error. > > > > > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > I have been reading that paragraph since this thread started and > > > > > > wondering how it could be thought unclear, what am I missing:-) > > > > > > > > > > > > To me it clearly states that the user must have the appropriate > > > > access > > > > > > for the consequences of whatever they do, be that 'when', 'choice' > > > > or > > > > > > anything else! Indeed, I see exactly that behaviour in operational > > > > > > (non-network) databases of which I am a user with limited > > > > privileges. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not correct. > > > > > The server is the entity that is cleaning up false when-stmt or > > > > unselected > > > > > cases > > > > > for a choice-stmt. > > > > > > > > > > NACM does not prevent the sever from making any changes to the system. > > > > > It only affects the operations requested by a client. > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > My model is slightly different, that the server is a black box, with an > > > > interface through which I can make authorised changes. If something I > > > > do causes the deletion of something I am not allowed to delete, may be > > > > not even to read, well, we part company on the acceptability of that! > > > > > > > > I do accept, as Randy points out, that the situation is complicated. I > > > > am reminded of the issues that came up relating to the 'when' statement > > > > when preparing YANG 1.1. Yes, 'when' makes things possible and is very > > > > useful but at the same time, its side effects can be troublesome. I > > > > would like to wrap it up in a conceptual bubble so you could not have > > > > the sort of fine-grained access control that allows the case that Rob > > > > postulates to occur but have no idea what that might look like. And I > > > > don't know how much 'when' is used in that way in existing YANG > > > > modules - uh huh, more reading required. > > > > > > > > > > > > > When the access control is too complicated, it does not get used. > > > Instead, the most likely access control is "everybody is the root user". > > > The server pruning of false when/choice data nodes is considered cleanup. > > > The pruned data is no longer relevant to the data model. This is the > > > indended > > > use, but when-stmt can easily be abused. > > > > > > The complex tangled web of dependencies is no worse > > > than it has been with CLI for 30 years, where every dependency is ad-hoc > > > and probably undocumented. The granularity of CLI-based access control > > > is less granular than NACM. > > > > > > It is possible that vendors and operators are willing to spend hours and > > > days > > > figuring out how to tune the NACM rules to allow a specific edit to work. > > > Of course the operator will not even be told by the server which nodes > > > are blocking the edit. That would be a security risk. > > > > > > IMO NACM will be completely unusable if rules are needed to allow > > > server cleanup of dead nodes. The additional NACM rules required > > > might provide more access than intended (unless lots of delete-only > > > rules are added). The huge jump in NACM rule management complexity is > > > a new security vulnerability, which might even be worse than the > > > vulnerability it is intended to fix. > > > > > > > > > > Tom Petch > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My other thought was that given all the complexities of 'when' that > > > > > > emerged during the specification of YANG 1.1, perhaps, were I an > > > > > > implementor of this, I would take the easy option and ignore the > > > > side > > > > > > effects of 'when'; but I might feel guilty about doing so. > > > > > > > > > > > > If the new paragraphs go in as proposed, then I think that the two > > > > > > paragraphs you quote need changing else that section looks to me > > > > like an > > > > > > oxymoron. > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom Petch > > > > > > > > > > > > > An <edit-data> request that causes a when constraint to evaluate > > > > > > > differently does result in a deletion of those data nodes from the > > > > > > > datastore, and hence according to the text above, requires > > > > explicit > > > > > > > "delete" access permission to accomplish that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly it would be an interop issue if different servers > > > > implemented > > > > > > > the NACM path based filtering differently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hence why I think that it would be prudent for the draft to be > > > > more > > > > > > > explicit on when and choice statement handling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There have not been any comments on this issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, Benoit. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Hi Benoit, > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> There is also one further, unrelated change that I am > > > > proposing > > > > > > > >> is made the draft before it is published, to help better > > > > > > clarify > > > > > > > >> the expected behavior. It isn't the end of the world if > > > > this > > > > > > > >> doesn't go in, but I think that it prevents sometime taking > > > > a > > > > > > > >> different, but IMO reasonable, interpretation of how "when" > > > > > > > >> statements are considered, and then having a future > > > > argument > > > > > > > >> about what behavior it specified in the standard. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> If we clarify it now, then it closes that door :-) > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> I've proposed text to Andy and Martin on Monday, but I've > > > > not > > > > > > > >> heard back yet. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Netconf email with proposed text attached. The text doesn't > > > > > > > >> necessarily have to match this, but personally I think that > > > > it > > > > > > is > > > > > > > >> useful if the draft says something on this. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Thanks, > > > > > > > >> Rob > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> On 22/11/2017 13:25, Benoit Claise wrote: > > > > > > > >>> On 11/10/2017 7:23 PM, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > > > >>>> Hi, > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> Here are some proposed edits to make the data rule > > > > consistent > > > > > > > >>>> with the examples. > > > > > > > >>>> Note that this issue is not related to the edit in the > > > > > > original > > > > > > > >>>> 1-week change. > > > > > > > >>> That's right, but we found a source of misinterpretation > > > > in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > >>> draft and you have rightly corrected it in the github v9. > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> Regards, Benoit > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> sec. 3.3.5: > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> OLD: > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> data node rule: controls access for a specific data > > > > > > > >>>> node, identified > > > > > > > >>>> by its path location within the conceptual XML document > > > > > > > >>>> for the > > > > > > > >>>> data node. > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> NEW: > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> data node rule: controls access for a specific data node > > > > > > > >>>> and its descendants, > > > > > > > >>>> identified by its path location within the conceptual XML > > > > > > > >>>> document for the > > > > > > > >>>> data node. > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> sec 3.4.5, step 6, bullet 2: > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> OLD: > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> * The rule does not have a "rule-type" defined or the > > > > > > > >>>> "rule- > > > > > > > >>>> type" is "data-node" and the "path" matches the > > > > > > > >>>> requested > > > > > > > >>>> data node, action node, or notification node. > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> NEW: > > > > > > > >>>> * The rule does not have a "rule-type" defined or the > > > > > > > >>>> "rule- > > > > > > > >>>> type" is "data-node" and the "path" matches the > > > > > > > >>>> requested > > > > > > > >>>> data node, action node, or notification node. A path is > > > > > > > >>>> considered to match if the current data node is the > > > > > > > >>>> data node > > > > > > > >>>> specified by the path, or is a descendant data node > > > > > > > >>>> of this data node. > > > > > > > >>>> appendix B.4: (2 bugs in explanation) > > > > > > > >>>> OLD: > > > > > > > >>>> deny-nacm: This rule denies the "guest" group any access > > > > to > > > > > > the > > > > > > > >>>> <nacm> subtree. Note that the default namespace is only > > > > > > > >>>> applicable because this subtree is defined in the same > > > > > > > >>>> namespace as the <data-rule> element. > > > > > > > >>>> NEW: > > > > > > > >>>> deny-nacm: This rule denies the "guest" group any access > > > > to > > > > > > the > > > > > > > >>>> <nacm> subtree. > > > > > > > >>>> Andy > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> On Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 9:24 AM, Robert Wilton > > > > > > > >>>> <rwilton@cisco.com <mailto:rwilton@cisco.com>> wrote: > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> On 10/11/2017 16:33, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 8:16 AM, Robert Wilton > > > > > > > >>>>> <rwilton@cisco.com <mailto:rwilton@cisco.com>> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>> On 10/11/2017 15:49, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > > <snip> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Netconf mailing list > Netconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf -- Ladislav Lhotka Head, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Kent Watsen
- [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one week… Benoit Claise
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Robert Wilton
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Andy Bierman
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Andy Bierman
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Robert Wilton
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Andy Bierman
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Mahesh Jethanandani
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Robert Wilton
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Per Hedeland
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Andy Bierman
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Robert Wilton
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Andy Bierman
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Robert Wilton
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Andy Bierman
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Andy Bierman
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Robert Wilton
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Robert Wilton
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Andy Bierman
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Andy Bierman
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Mahesh Jethanandani
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Andy Bierman
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Robert Wilton
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Mahesh Jethanandani
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Robert Wilton
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Mahesh Jethanandani
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Mahesh Jethanandani
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Robert Wilton
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Andy Bierman
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Benoit Claise
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Robert Wilton
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Benoit Claise
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Andy Bierman
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Robert Wilton
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … t.petch
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Andy Bierman
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Randy Presuhn
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Andy Bierman
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Randy Presuhn
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … t.petch
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Andy Bierman
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Robert Wilton
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Robert Wilton
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Andy Bierman
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Robert Wilton
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Andy Bierman
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Andy Bierman
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … t.petch
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: [Netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-rfc6536bis: one … Benoit Claise