Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Extension Field drafts -- Four separate drafts
Heiko Gerstung <heiko.gerstung@meinberg.de> Mon, 02 September 2019 10:59 UTC
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Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2019 12:59:45 +0200
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Thread-Topic: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Extension Field drafts -- Four separate drafts
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From: Heiko Gerstung <heiko.gerstung@meinberg.de>
To: Harlan Stenn <stenn@nwtime.org>, "ntp@ietf.org" <ntp@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Extension Field drafts -- Four separate drafts
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Harlan, I am not sure I understand you correctly. My point was that we can change the base format of an NTP packet because we mark it as version=5. If someone sends a request with version=4, he should get a version=4 response with the v4 packet format. If someone sends a version=5 request, they will get a version=5 response with the new packet format, because the v5 request indicated that the client wants and understands a v5 response. Maybe we both agree on this one here and just misunderstand each other? ;-) Again, the loop detection algorithm for degree-n-loops would be one benefit from a chain of refids that are passed on from top to down. It would also allow to identify if two or three of my stratum 3 sources get their time from the same stratum 1 source. If we add a flag to the chain that indicates that this InstanceID contributed to the chain using an NTS protected connection, a client could reject any source that is not providing a fully protected chain. Or it prefers a source that can come up with such a chain. Best Regards, Heiko -- Heiko Gerstung Managing Director MEINBERG® Funkuhren GmbH & Co. KG Lange Wand 9 D-31812 Bad Pyrmont, Germany Phone: +49 (0)5281 9309-404 Fax: +49 (0)5281 9309-9404 Amtsgericht Hannover 17HRA 100322 Geschäftsführer/Management: Günter Meinberg, Werner Meinberg, Andre Hartmann, Heiko Gerstung Email: heiko.gerstung@meinberg.de Web: Deutsch https://www.meinberg.de English https://www.meinbergglobal.com Do not miss our Time Synchronization Blog: https://blog.meinbergglobal.com Connect via LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heikogerstung On 02.09.19, 12:48 "ntp im Auftrag von Harlan Stenn" <ntp-bounces@ietf.org im Auftrag von stenn@nwtime.org> wrote: On 8/28/2019 4:30 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote: > I agree. If someone knocks on the door with v5 packets, reply in v5 > form, if someone knocks on the door with v4 packets, reply in v4 form. > As people migrate to v5, they can start using all the benefits from it. So what's the value and purpose of the version field in the packet if we decide it no longer identifies the structure/content of the fields in the packet? An implementation that speaks "version N" MUST understand version N packet formats, and SHOULD understand versions <N. If there is a blanket requirement that if we understand version N and we get a packet that is version >N, then if we respond with that same version instead of responding with a version N packet, then we are effectively saying we MUST NOT ever change the layout and meaning of the content of the base packet. What I'm seeing in this thread is that folks disagree with the above, and in that case I'm wondering if folks understand what they think they're advocating for. Please see Heiko's last comment below, and understand it in this context. > For loop-protection, keeping a list of nodes from the source is a very > easy base condition to avoid routing loops, since as an announcement > comes in, if none of the nodes in the list is oneself, you may use it, > where as if any of the nodes is oneself, a loop is for sure detected. The recipient has NO KNOWLEDGE of what the incoming refid means. It's SOLE PURPOSE in this is degree-one loop detection, and that happens at the "top" of the local tree. > While the trace loop detection mechanism is sufficient in theory, it > does not completely solve all loop problems, as transient loops may > occur, but it at least avoids problems in the long term. I don't believe there is any current way to communicate this knowledge, so larger trace loop detection seems impossible without a way to communicate this information. It also begs the question of *where* this detection should happen. I think Heiko mentioned a loop they saw and I would be very interested in seeing the details there, as such a loop should break as soon as any of: - the stratum in the loop devolves to 16 - the root distance grows - possibly something else The point being that the important thing is that if a loop happens there is an automatic recovery path. If we never get a loop that's better, but it won't be fatal to a properly configured setup if a loop happens and the loop is then broken. > If I only had time to describe all the things I would do to enhance NTP, > it has a number of built-in assumptions which is not useful or correct. How about a list of at least some of the built-in assumptions that you think are not useful or correct? H -- > Cheers, > Magnus > > On 2019-08-28 13:23, Heiko Gerstung wrote: >> Why not define a method in v5 that not only protects against degree 1 loops but maybe also against degree 2,3 or n? >> >> This is what I meant when trying to explain that we should not stick to the existing packet format with its shortcomings. >> >> Regards, >> Heiko >> > > _______________________________________________ > ntp mailing list > ntp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ntp > -- Harlan Stenn, Network Time Foundation http://nwtime.org - be a Member! _______________________________________________ ntp mailing list ntp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ntp
- [Ntp] Calls for Adoption -- NTP Extension Field d… Karen O'Donoghue
- Re: [Ntp] Calls for Adoption -- NTP Extension Fie… Heiko Gerstung
- [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Extensi… Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Calls for Adoption -- NTP Extension Fie… tglassey@earthlink.net
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Heiko Gerstung
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Heiko Gerstung
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Heiko Gerstung
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Heiko Gerstung
- [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- N… Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Calls for Adoption -- NTP Extension Fie… Daniel Franke
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Heiko Gerstung
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption … Heiko Gerstung
- Re: [Ntp] Calls for Adoption -- NTP Extension Fie… Watson Ladd
- Re: [Ntp] Calls for Adoption -- NTP Extension Fie… Salz, Rich
- [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- N… Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Dieter Sibold
- Re: [Ntp] Calls for Adoption -- NTP Extension Fie… kristof.teichel
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Magnus Danielson
- [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- N… Ulrich Windl
- [Ntp] Antw: Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Adoptio… Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption … Heiko Gerstung
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption … Hal Murray
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption … Miroslav Lichvar
- [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- N… Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption … Harlan Stenn
- [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Ado… Ulrich Windl
- [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Ado… Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption … Heiko Gerstung
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Harlan Stenn
- [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Ado… Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Heiko Gerstung
- Re: [Ntp] Calls for Adoption -- NTP Extension Fie… Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Magnus Danielson
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Heiko Gerstung
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Daniel Franke
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Heiko Gerstung
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Hal Murray
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Heiko Gerstung
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Heiko Gerstung
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption … Hal Murray
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption … Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption … Heiko Gerstung
- [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Ado… Ulrich Windl
- [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Ado… Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for… Watson Ladd
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Salz, Rich
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Daniel Franke
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Salz, Rich
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Daniel Franke
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Salz, Rich
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Salz, Rich
- [Ntp] NTP errors Hal Murray
- Re: [Ntp] Calls for Adoption -- NTP Extension Fie… Harlan Stenn
- [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- N… Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption … Watson Ladd
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption … Hal Murray
- [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Ado… Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Hal Murray
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Calls for Adoption -- NTP Extension Fie… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- NTP Ext… Miroslav Lichvar
- [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption -- N… Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption … Miroslav Lichvar
- [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Ado… Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for… Watson Ladd
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption … Hal Murray
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption … Mark Atwood
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Adoption … Steven Sommars
- [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Calls for Ado… Ulrich Windl