Re: [nvo3] [MBONED] NVO3 Multicast Framework

[Joe Touch <[e-mail]>]

On 1/30/2017 2:17 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote:
>
> Joe,
>
>  
>
> Thanks for your suggestion.
>
>  
>
> I added the following sentence in the Section 3 (Multicast Mechanisms
> in networks that use NVO3):
>
>  
>
> /What makes NVO3 different from any other network is that some NVEs,
> especially the NVE implemented on server, might not support PIM or other /
>
native...

> /multicast mechanisms. They might just encapsulate the data packets
> from VMs with an outer /
>
/unicast/
>
> /header. Therefore, it is important for networks using NVO3 to have
> mechanisms /
>
/to support multicast as a network capability/
>
> /for NVEs, /
>
/(omit the following):/
>
> /especially the ones that do not support multicast, /
>
/(end omit)/
>
> /to map /
>
/network/
>
> /multicast traffic from VMs (users/applications) to /
>
/an equivalent multicast capability inside the NVE,

(then omit the following:)
/
>
> /proper Outer Header, /
>
/(end omit)/
>
> /e.g. figuring out the outer destination address if NVE does not support/
>
/native/
>
> /multicast (e.g. PIM)./
>
or IGMP.

> //
>
>  
>
>  
>
> If it is Okay with you, I will upload the draft.
>
>  
>
> Thanks, Linda
>
>  
>
> *From:*Joe Touch [mailto:[e-mail]]
> *Sent:* 2017年1月30日14:02
> *To:* Linda Dunbar <[e-mail]>; Olufemi Komolafe
> <[e-mail]>; Anoop Ghanwani <[e-mail]>; Bocci,
> Matthew (Nokia - GB) <[e-mail]>
> *Cc:* MBONED WG <[e-mail]>; Truman Boyes
> <[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>; Williamson,
> Beau <[e-mail]>; Dino Farinacci <[e-mail]>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvo3] [MBONED] NVO3 Multicast Framework
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> On 1/30/2017 11:38 AM, Linda Dunbar wrote:
>
>     Joe,
>
>      
>
>     You asked:
>
>     What makes NVO3 different from any other network?
>
>      
>
>     Answer:  Some NVEs, especially the NVE implemented on server,
>     don’t support PIM or other multicast mechanism. They just
>     encapsulate the data packets from VMs with an outer header.
>
> Then the requirement would be:
>     NVO3 does not require native multicast, but does require supported
> multicast capability.
>
>
>      The “UNIQUE needs of NVO3” is to have the  mechanism for NVEs
>     (especially the ones that don’t support multicast) to map
>     multicast traffic from VMs (users/applications)  to proper Outer
>     Header. E.g. if NVE doesn’t support multicast (PIM), what outer
>     destination address should be.
>
>
> That needs to be explained in detail, especially for ways to support
> multicast without PIM.
>
>
>      All we need is to differentiate multicast messages originated
>     from users/applications from the infrastructure multicast at the
>     introduction section. Not intended to describe in detail of the
>     Infrastructure multicast.
>
>      
>
>     I don’t understand how  RFC3819 (Advice for Internet Subnetwork
>     Designs) can be used. RFC 3819 talks about MTU, TCP/link
>     retransmission, etc. 
>
>
> See sections 5 and 6.
>
> Joe
>
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     Linda Dunbar
>
>      
>
>      
>
>     *From:*Joe Touch [mailto:[e-mail]]
>     *Sent:* 2017年1月30日12:42
>     *To:* Linda Dunbar <[e-mail]>
>     <mailto:[e-mail]>; Olufemi Komolafe
>     <[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]>; Anoop
>     Ghanwani <[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]>;
>     Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <[e-mail]>
>     <mailto:[e-mail]>
>     *Cc:* MBONED WG <[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]>; Truman
>     Boyes <[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]>;
>     <[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
>     <mailto:[e-mail]>; Williamson, Beau
>     <[e-mail]>
>     <mailto:[e-mail]>; Dino Farinacci
>     <[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>     *Subject:* Re: [nvo3] [MBONED] NVO3 Multicast Framework
>
>      
>
>     Note: most of what you want to say about multicast has already
>     been observed in RFC 3819.
>
>     The discussion in section 1.1 should refer to LANE (RFC1577) as an
>     example.
>
>     However, before we get down into this in detail, I have to ask:
>     what makes NVO3 different from any other network?
>
>     This WG doesn't need one doc for everything an NVO3 network needs
>     that a network already needs. The docs should focus on the UNIQUE
>     needs of NVO3 or ways in which NVO3 provides multicast that are
>     not available in generic networks.
>
>     The rest of the discussion of the need for multicast, etc., ought
>     to cite existing RFCs.
>
>     Joe
>
>     On 1/30/2017 10:35 AM, Joe Touch wrote:
>
>         Hi, Linda,
>
>         This isn't correct grammar.
>
>         Do you want to say:
>
>         /Infrastructure multicast /*is a capability needed by
>         */networking services//, such as Address Resolution Protocol
>         (ARP), Neighbor Discovery (ND), Dynamic Host Configuration
>         Protocol (DHCP), multicast Domain Name Server (mDNS), etc../
>
>         Joe
>
>         On 1/30/2017 10:21 AM, Linda Dunbar wrote:
>
>             Joe,
>
>              
>
>             Are you ok with the following?
>
>              
>
>             /Infrastructure multicast are //for networking services//,
>             such as Address Resolution Protocol (ARP), Neighbor
>             Discovery (ND), Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol
>             (DHCP), multicast Domain Name Server (mDNS), etc../
>
>              
>
>             Linda
>
>              
>
>             *From:*Joe Touch [mailto:[e-mail]]
>             *Sent:* 2017年1月30日12:03
>             *To:* Linda Dunbar <[e-mail]>
>             <mailto:[e-mail]>; Olufemi Komolafe
>             <[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]>;
>             Anoop Ghanwani <[e-mail]>
>             <mailto:[e-mail]>; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia -
>             GB) <[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>             *Cc:* MBONED WG <[e-mail]>
>             <mailto:[e-mail]>; Truman Boyes
>             <[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]>;
>             <[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
>             <mailto:[e-mail]>; Williamson, Beau
>             <[e-mail]>
>             <mailto:[e-mail]>; Dino Farinacci
>             <[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>             *Subject:* Re: [nvo3] [MBONED] NVO3 Multicast Framework
>
>              
>
>             I'd suggest "networking services", only to avoid the
>             implication that these are all L3.
>
>             Joe
>
>              
>
>             On 1/30/2017 9:58 AM, Linda Dunbar wrote:
>
>                 Joe,
>
>                  
>
>                 Do you mean the following?
>
>                  
>
>                 /Infrastructure multicast are originated by network
>                 //services //for the purpose of establishing network
>                 topology and reachability, such as Address Resolution
>                 Protocol (ARP), Neighbor Discovery (ND), Dynamic Host
>                 Configuration Protocol (DHCP), multicast Domain Name
>                 Server (mDNS), etc../
>
>                  
>
>                 Linda
>
>                  
>
>                 *From:*Joe Touch [mailto:[e-mail]]
>                 *Sent:* 2017年1月30日11:49
>                 *To:* Linda Dunbar <[e-mail]>
>                 <mailto:[e-mail]>; Olufemi Komolafe
>                 <[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]>;
>                 Anoop Ghanwani <[e-mail]>
>                 <mailto:[e-mail]>; Bocci, Matthew (Nokia
>                 - GB) <[e-mail]>
>                 <mailto:[e-mail]>
>                 *Cc:* MBONED WG <[e-mail]>
>                 <mailto:[e-mail]>; Truman Boyes
>                 <[e-mail]>
>                 <mailto:[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]>
>                 <mailto:[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
>                 <mailto:[e-mail]>; Williamson, Beau
>                 <[e-mail]>
>                 <mailto:[e-mail]>; Dino Farinacci
>                 <[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>                 *Subject:* Re: [nvo3] [MBONED] NVO3 Multicast Framework
>
>                  
>
>                 Hi, Linda,
>
>                 These are not all "network protocols", as I noted already.
>
>                 It might be useful to describe them all as "services",
>                 though.
>
>                 I.e., to replate "network protocols" with "services"
>                 (or maybe even "networking services" - to distinguish
>                 them from OS services, but not give the impression
>                 they belong at the "network" layer).
>
>                 Joe
>
>                  
>
>                 On 1/30/2017 8:17 AM, Linda Dunbar wrote:
>
>                     Joe,
>
>                      
>
>                     Thank you very much for articulating a more
>                     precise definition.
>
>                      
>
>                     How about this:
>
>                     /Infrastructure multicast are originated by
>                     network //protocols //for the purpose of
>                     establishing network topology and reachability,
>                     such as Address Resolution Protocol (ARP),
>                     Neighbor Discovery (ND), Dynamic Host
>                     Configuration Protocol (DHCP), multicast Domain
>                     Name Server (mDNS), etc../
>
>                      
>
>                     /Application-specific multicast traffic are
>                     originated and consumed by user applications./
>
>                     Linda
>
>                      
>
>                     *From:*Joe Touch [mailto:[e-mail]]
>                     *Sent:* 2017年1月27日18:20
>                     *To:* Linda Dunbar <[e-mail]>
>                     <mailto:[e-mail]>; Olufemi Komolafe
>                     <[e-mail]>
>                     <mailto:[e-mail]>; Anoop Ghanwani
>                     <[e-mail]>
>                     <mailto:[e-mail]>; Bocci, Matthew
>                     (Nokia - GB) <[e-mail]>
>                     <mailto:[e-mail]>
>                     *Cc:* MBONED WG <[e-mail]>
>                     <mailto:[e-mail]>; Truman Boyes
>                     <[e-mail]>
>                     <mailto:[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]>
>                     <mailto:[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
>                     <mailto:[e-mail]>; Williamson, Beau
>                     <[e-mail]>
>                     <mailto:[e-mail]>; Dino
>                     Farinacci <[e-mail]>
>                     <mailto:[e-mail]>
>                     *Subject:* Re: [nvo3] [MBONED] NVO3 Multicast
>                     Framework
>
>                      
>
>                      
>
>                      
>
>                     On 1/27/2017 4:03 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote:
>
>                         /[Linda] //Infrastructure multicast are
>                         originated by network nodes for the purpose of
>                         establishing network topology and
>                         reachability, such as Address Resolution
>                         Protocol (ARP), Neighbor Discovery (ND),
>                         Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol (DHCP),
>                         multicast Domain Name Server (mDNS), etc../
>
>                         + Also, how would you classify protocols like
>                         OSPF, PIM, VRRP etc that are dependent on
>                         multicast?  Even if you do not consider them
>                         relevant for this framework, perhaps you
>                         should briefly mention them?
>
>                         /[Linda] I don’t think we can enumerate all
>                         network protocols (many of them use
>                         multicast). The purpose is to differentiate
>                         multicast originated by network nodes and the
>                         multicast originated by applications. /
>
>                     DHCP and mDNS are applications ("L7").
>
>                     Network nodes don't originate anything; their
>                     protocol layers do (link, network, transport,
>                     application).
>
>                     It might be useful to focus on the difference
>                     being "network infrastructure" vs "user
>                     applications" as the better way to describe the
>                     difference. I don't think "network nodes vs.
>                     applications" is clear or meaningful.
>
>                     Joe
>
>                  
>
>              
>
>          
>
>      
>
>  
>