[p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP
RADHIKA.R.ROY at saic.com (Roy, Radhika R.) Fri, 22 September 2006 20:06 UTC
From: "RADHIKA.R.ROY at saic.com"
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 16:06:07 -0400
Subject: [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP
Message-ID: <62D92A9A02BCC845B202323D49A48426E1CE75@0591-ITS-EXMP02.us.saic.com>
Philip: It is OK to look into those solutions using ICE for p2p-SIP. A 2-year time period for development NAT-crossing standard for p2p-SIP will be OK. However, let us spend our most energy to develop the best p2p-SIP protocol which is the future direction of the Internet. Best regards, Radhika PS: BTW: Even it is OK to cross NATs by p2p-SIP, will you also be looking for the support of QOS so that NATs are NOT forcing more intelligent entities around NATs not to mention NAT-crossing clients, servers, security patches, QOS brokering, and many others so that cannons are used to kill a mosquito? If not, why not? If yes, would you and others provide suggestions to NSIS WG as they are almost lost to do anything good that works well? NATs will have their natural death as firewalls are much more superior to do all those jobs of NATs without causing problems for SIP signaling and media and other applications, but p2p-SIP is NOT. _____ From: Philip Matthews [mailto:philip_matthews at magma.ca] Sent: Fri 9/22/2006 1:24 PM To: Henry Sinnreich Cc: Michael Slavitch; Roy, Radhika R.; P2P-SIP Subject: Re: [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Henry: Eric Cooper and I have spent quite a bit of time recently working on ICE to make sure it is suitable for P2PSIP systems. Back in April, when we first looked at ICE, it worked well when one peer was behind a NAT and the other had a public IP address, but was somewhat inefficient due to duplicated checks when both endpoints were behind (separate) NATs. We published a draft just before the Montreal meeting that proposed changes to the state machine to eliminate that problem (draft-matthews-mmusic-ice-eliminating-duplicates-00), and have since collaborated with Jonathan on this issue so that the current version of ICE (ICE-10) handles this case much better. At present, I don't believe that any changes are required to ICE-UDP itself to make it more suitable for P2PSIP systems. (I haven't looked at ICE-TCP in detail yet). The only questions now are around how one uses ICE in a P2PSIP network, and here at Avaya we are currently investigating this issue, building on our proposals in draft-matthews-p2psip-nats-and-overlays-00. - Philip On 22-Sep-06, at 10:13 , Henry Sinnreich wrote: This may not fit into the charter discussion, but joining Michael Slavitch, I would be interested if any or what modifications ICE would be required for P2P systems, where most peers reside behind a NAT. Any opinions? Jonathan? Thanks, Henry _____ From: p2p-sip-bounces at cs.columbia.edu [mailto:p2p-sip-bounces at cs.columbia.edu <mailto:p2p-sip-bounces at cs.columbia.edu> ] On Behalf Of Michael Slavitch Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 9:45 AM To: Roy, Radhika R. Cc: p2p-sip at cs.columbia.edu <mailto:p2p-sip at cs.columbia.edu> ; David A. Bryan Subject: Re: [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP It is certainly not a nonsense problem outside of some rare circles as nearly all consumer and business networks fall behind NATs. Without NAT crossing P2PSIP is useless. I agree that in a deterministic system a perfect solution is required. That is why deterministic systems are always so brittle. The world is a messy fractal place. By definition P2PSIP will not be deterministic so a perfect solution is not only unnecessary, it is not desirable if the cost of complexity exceeds the apparent benefit. The solutions that exist are statistical and fractal, not perfect and deterministic. Skype is living proof of a broadly used implementation that shows that the problem is solved in a matter that meets the requirements for P2P systems. Since all P2P systems share a common fractal nature a fractal solution is perfectly suited to the domain. For all the criticism of ICE, and I've done my fair share, it is getting simple enough to implement from the draft to be expressed in BNF notation. It is now fairly easy to build ICE into a finite state machine, as ICE now describes a completion mechanism where the protocol is complete. That encourages interoperability from the start. Any inadequacies that remain result from the fact that client-server SIP is the only official user of the protocol. These are minor issues that can only be addressed by MMUSIC once we have a P2PSIP WG that can request changes. That is a diplomatic problem, not an engineering problem, if the underlying protocol in ICE can meet base P2PSIP requirements. That is why WG chairs are chosen carefully. Regarding unsolved problems: If the underlying system is fractal then a statistical solution with a high probability of success meets the requirements for the system. This is true for all fractal systems. The only issue is determining the probability of success of different solutions and either choosing one that meets the circumstances at hand or modifying another to make it an appropriate choice. I further argue that the fractal nature of ICE is far more suited to the fractal P2P world than it is to the assumed-deterministic IMS/CS model. It may be not ever be solved perfectly enough for IMS but for self-organizing P2PSIP it won't have to be perfect as the nature of a self-organizing systems is to work around their own shortcomings. P2PSIP will be rugged enough such that perfect solutions are not needed. If the other working groups are failing it may be because the systems they are building towards may be broken and brittle and not rugged enough to tolerate statistical solutions. Given the talent at hand that will certainly not be the case with P2PSIP. Regards M On 9/21/06, Roy, Radhika R. <RADHIKA.R.ROY at saic.com <mailto:RADHIKA.R.ROY at saic.com> > wrote: M: The ONLY reason is this: It is an unsolvable problem. All IETF WGs have been trying, and have been failing successully!!! The word UNFORTUNATE is there to discourage for spending too much time for this technically nonsense problem. That is, p2p-SIP may not be even p2p-SIP WG anymore at the end of the solution - all fear is this: It might make p2p-SIP NAT crossing solution as non-p2p-SIP NAT crossing protocol. I hope I would be be wrong! Who knows what is coming out of by SIP, SIPPING, NSIS, IPSEC, DIAMETER, and others almost after 6-10 years! Now, MMUSIC has turned their attention to ICE-xxxxxx versions. Let us wait for ICE (versions # infinite) to see whether it could be used for p2p-SP!!! How about this? RRR _____ From: Michael Slavitch [mailto: slavitch at gmail.com <mailto:slavitch at gmail.com> ] Sent: Thu 9/21/2006 2:32 PM To: Roy, Radhika R. Cc: David A. Bryan; p2p-sip at cs.columbia.edu <mailto:p2p-sip at cs.columbia.edu> Subject: Re: [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP The "NAT is evil" argument is a matter of faith and belief, a moral statement that has no place in a protocol working group charter. Engineering solutions emerge from the judicious study of discernible reality. NAT exists, therefore it must be dealt with. Period. >From an engineering standpoint, it creates problems that need to be solved with solutions that reflect the facts on the ground. The P2PSIP Working Group must be part of the reality-based community, rather than part of an ideological community, therefore the working group charter must distinguish consensus external reality from ideologically created reality if the working group is to be at all successful. There is ample evidence that creating one's own reality despite evidence to the contrary results in failure. Given that, the word "unfortunate" has no place in an engineering document. By definition it must be struck. Regards, M On 9/21/06, Roy, Radhika R. RADHIKA.R.ROY at saic.com <mailto:RADHIKA.R.ROY at saic.com> <mailto:RADHIKA.R.ROY at saic.com <mailto:RADHIKA.R.ROY at saic.com> > wrote: Mike and all: I am commenting on NATs. >From IETF point of view, the use of NATs as it is done these days is "unfortunate." Let us see what had been the history of NAT standardization in the IETF? The IETF charter had been to help the "scarcity" of IPv4 addresses (before IPv6 even been proposed). It was hoped that, by the time IPv6 is standardized, there is will be no more requirements of NATs to provide more address spaces. Now, people have forgot the original usage of NATs. People are using NATs as a part of "security" for hiding the configurations behind NATs. It is completely an "illusion" to be happy to know that people are "secured" by using NATs. It is still going on in a mass scale throughout the world, and no one knows when this will be stopped. Should the purpose of the NAT standardization be "SECURITY" or "TOPOLOGY HIDING in the name of security," IETF would NEVER standardized NATs for these purposes. The rest is history!!! So, it is UNFORTUNATE so far the MIS-use of NATs is concerned because NATs are not needed anymore due to shortage of IPv4 addresses or NATs cannot provide security through hiding configurations. Therefore, the draft charter is CORRECT in this context to use the word "UNFORTUNATE." Best regards, Radhika _______________________________________________ p2p-sip mailing list p2p-sip at cs.columbia.edu <mailto:p2p-sip at cs.columbia.edu> https://lists.cs.columbia.edu/cucslists/listinfo/p2p-sip <https://lists.cs.columbia.edu/cucslists/listinfo/p2p-sip>
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Dean Willis
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Spencer Dawkins
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Henry Sinnreich
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Dean Willis
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Peter Pan
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Enrico Marocco
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP David A. Bryan
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Michael Slavitch
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Eunsoo Shim
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Eunsoo Shim
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Scott W Brim
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Enrico Marocco
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Roy, Radhika R.
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Roy, Radhika R.
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP David A. Bryan
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Eunsoo Shim
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Scott W Brim
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Spencer Dawkins
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Michael Slavitch
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP David A. Bryan
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Spencer Dawkins
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Roy, Radhika R.
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Philip Matthews
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Philip Matthews
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Philip Matthews
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Enrico Marocco
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Michael Slavitch
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Henry Sinnreich
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Roy, Radhika R.
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Philip Matthews
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Philip Matthews
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Philip Matthews
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Roy, Radhika R.
- [p2p-sip] Revised Draft Charter for P2PSIP Philip Matthews