Re: Hidden connection spawning

Kazuho Oku <> Fri, 27 July 2018 00:31 UTC

Return-Path: <>
Received: from localhost (localhost []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id 861A7130DC0 for <>; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 17:31:07 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key)
Received: from ([]) by localhost ( []) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kA2Z0vKuVYG2 for <>; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 17:31:05 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ( [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0324B1292F1 for <>; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 17:31:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by with SMTP id f8-v6so3012764ljk.1 for <>; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 17:31:04 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=SZ7zXxEDRsxnVviNGKXjTsRzb6Bp+46am+rjrKb9KBg=; b=vU9V7k0faVzr7ktsiNKLqa6/bhTYn0+YHfzSxpqAxmJBSjZBCOc2TO9A+6QR25NFtG EfR5etime/CscUuDTUuBdY8Hc2PgF852WamaIDVf7oIJF9uaD/9mRCJilEgpFea95hHP i0Q2+3UfzNqoRobQse8+dPAgqDdZXfTR1c7CuivWqgB3myk3aiuxdZt4aUriCKIbM5HQ z4m17Mgb2uDh18LzQFgTYFcgCQumsZRNAS5uAXtZhYQNMU5ED4m+H7cz3EoofY5nFe2H 0mFeJXMF4uiIb5Sm5UfmwxEDSJSfcRgr5VgfILGkA9Ql3mo38E5eVrC/vVUxHjT3Oa/9 97AA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=SZ7zXxEDRsxnVviNGKXjTsRzb6Bp+46am+rjrKb9KBg=; b=R/TpplAOCut0tsp9BuUTzJoOWzNI7v9fqz5rOAw+ZmHfZ3BgcTgMBIlC+wPTlYhDhO YGEql77vCZwYCLCuF9flJ5gEJa4OjIMAM0oHj7P6+VR3pKnKZKkxDBGxN/NgV1nQ2/Xa 5b0f4p9rdzVI2FoNEeKX41QiSMGdd9+MgYH87Swqw8PA0cYZ46SJwtUr6rwKO7ohs78N JGyDSFOsh2yhlKx1RZqF3O2wz/UOMezhmpaY2yGEpVvqD3W3u3RUkexfhTq3eeV7tegH 5owJ2QqW3dYLe0FvZaiSQZ3bNM6VVfThzQEWDI8hmuuEF8lrtnhOfhkMisSVRtjBMa+9 7vKQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlHoFz6jLwYQmEOpfO3F40OXOm8apThnZTf+bTt3eAT6QimSxslB 3URcRygKMDvVwACAA7pZCDezEms7EZzNDASKVHMCByNx
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfEPjWzyOz25Igmpjx2q144gOChW7suE3sVoWKRM38KTtkDiCv1JnzHf/pXrtxRg+HLmOffY4aatJlpqsNe+18=
X-Received: by 2002:a2e:2e02:: with SMTP id u2-v6mr3280995lju.77.1532651463222; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 17:31:03 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 2002:a2e:8996:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 17:31:02 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <>
References: <>
From: Kazuho Oku <>
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:31:02 +0900
Message-ID: <>
Subject: Re: Hidden connection spawning
To: Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen <>
Cc: IETF QUIC WG <>, Chris Wood <>,,
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: <>
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27
Precedence: list
List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group <>
List-Unsubscribe: <>, <>
List-Archive: <>
List-Post: <>
List-Help: <>
List-Subscribe: <>, <>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 00:31:08 -0000

2018-07-26 15:31 GMT+09:00 Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen <>:
> I came to think about a use case where you want to spawn a new connection
> from an existing connection because the new connection runs a different
> protocol. For example a http connection where you  want to run a separate
> live conference call, or to control tunnels from http control connection.
> You have roughly three options:
> 1. extend the current protocol with the new feature set in extension frames
> or similar
> 2. develop or use a purposes specific QUIC protol using 0-RTT for spawning
> the connection
> 3. negotiate the new connection handshake within the current handshake.
> The first solution is not complex, limited, and not modular.
> The second solution can be used to get information about the connection, and
> for example block connections that appear to be doing that.
> The third solution allows for an invisible connection spawn, but requires
> addition handshake logic which is already complex as it is.

I prefer the second approach, since it allows spawning connections in
0-RTT across different transports.

For example, I think that it would be nice to have a way to spawn a
0-RTT HQ connection from a HTTP/2 connection (via alt-svc).

Note also that there is an individual draft submitted to TLSWG that
discusses of adding a way for a TLS server to issue session tickets
that could be context-specific: see

> I suggesting solution 3 as possible option, although I am not convinced that
> this is worthwhile, at least in V1.
> This was in part inspired by recent discussion on tunneling, and in part by
> the following issue where partial reliability is being discussed and
> possibly shoe-horned into an extension. I am not following that issue
> closely though - it is just an example.
> Mikkel

Kazuho Oku