Re: Is the invariants draft really standards track?
Kyle Rose <krose@krose.org> Wed, 27 May 2020 15:28 UTC
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From: Kyle Rose <krose@krose.org>
Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 11:28:24 -0400
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Subject: Re: Is the invariants draft really standards track?
To: Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>, Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net>
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On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 10:34 AM Ian Swett <ianswett= 40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > I was agreeing with MT, but I'm happy to see some more MUSTs added if > people feel that'd be helpful. > Coincidentally, we were just talking about this internally at Akamai yesterday. IMO, an invariants document isn't really helpful if it isn't normative, and for it to be normative it (or a related practices doc for operators) really needs to spell out clear boundaries for operators with MUSTs. The example that came up yesterday was around operators filtering QUIC in the event of a DDoS: one recommendation based on some conversations going back at least to Prague 2019 was to hash packets on 4-tuple and filter those below a hash value chosen for a desired ingress limit instead of doing what most operators do with UDP today, which is to cap UDP throughput and just drop packets randomly or tail drop. This recommendation certainly imposes some constraints on future protocol development that motivate new invariants: for instance, it would preclude sharding a connection across multiple source ports (not that there is necessarily a reason to do this; it's just an example). But more importantly, it goes beyond invariants: it's one among many practices compatible with the current set of invariants, some reasonable and some terrible. Operators are going to do things to QUIC traffic, so it would be good to offer them recommendations that are compatible with broad deployability. Kyle
- Is the invariants draft really standards track? Martin Duke
- Re: Is the invariants draft really standards trac… Martin Thomson
- Re: Is the invariants draft really standards trac… Roberto Peon
- Re: Is the invariants draft really standards trac… Ian Swett
- Re: Is the invariants draft really standards trac… Jana Iyengar
- Re: Is the invariants draft really standards trac… Lars Eggert
- Re: Is the invariants draft really standards trac… Ian Swett
- Re: Is the invariants draft really standards trac… Martin Duke
- Re: Is the invariants draft really standards trac… Kyle Rose
- Re: Is the invariants draft really standards trac… Christian Huitema
- Re: Is the invariants draft really standards trac… Jana Iyengar
- RE: Is the invariants draft really standards trac… Lubashev, Igor
- Re: Is the invariants draft really standards trac… Jared Mauch
- Re: Is the invariants draft really standards trac… Paul Vixie
- Re: Is the invariants draft really standards trac… Martin Duke
- Re: Is the invariants draft really standards trac… Martin Duke
- RE: Is the invariants draft really standards trac… Lubashev, Igor
- Re: Is the invariants draft really standards trac… Martin Duke
- RE: Is the invariants draft really standards trac… Lubashev, Igor
- Re: Is the invariants draft really standards trac… Christian Huitema
- Re: Is the invariants draft really standards trac… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Is the invariants draft really standards trac… Ted Hardie
- Re: Is the invariants draft really standards trac… Christian Huitema
- Re: Is the invariants draft really standards trac… Martin Duke
- Re: Is the invariants draft really standards trac… Christian Huitema
- Re: Is the invariants draft really standards trac… Martin Duke
- Re: Is the invariants draft really standards trac… Paul Vixie
- RE: Is the invariants draft really standards trac… Mike Bishop
- Re: Is the invariants draft really standards trac… Paul Vixie