Re: [Raw] Roman Danyliw's Discuss on draft-ietf-raw-use-cases-08: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

[CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO <[e-mail]>]

Hi Roman,

Thanks a lot for your review. Please see inline some responses on how we
propose to address your comments.

On Thu, Nov 17, 2022 at 6:22 PM Roman Danyliw via Datatracker <
[e-mail]> wrote:

> Roman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-raw-use-cases-08: Discuss
>
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>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Section 12 states the situation accurately – “Each of the potential RAW
> use-cases will have security considerations from both the use-specific
> perspective.”  Where are these security and privacy considerations for
> these
> uses cases discussed?  Are these in scope to solve for RAW?  A select list
> to
> review would be:
>
> ** Section 3.*. Per the amusement park use case, what are the physical
> location
> tracking and surveillance considerations?
>
> ** Section 7.*.  Per the vehicle platooning use case, what are the physical
> location tracking privacy considerations?
>
> ** Section 8.*. Per the edge robotics use case, what are the privacy
> considerations of the video surveillance?
>
> ** Section 9.*.  Per the ambulance use case, what are the security
> considerations around exchanging health care information over a wireless
> WAN?
>
> A clearer distinction of what is to be addressed at the protocol level, and
> what seems like an application consideration is needed.
>
> [Carlos] This is a good point to clarify. We have followed the same
approach as in the DETNET use cases document (RFC 8578). The RAW use cases
document aims at documenting different use cases of interest for RAW, and
documenting their demands in terms of rea liability and availability. The
document does not go into the per-use case privacy and security
considerations of potential future RAW solutions. As of today, the RAW WG
is not chartered to work on solutions (it might be done in RAW or DETNET).
We believe that the specific privacy and security considerations for the
solutions would belong to a different document. Do you think we should be
specific about this in the document? We borrowed some text from RFC 8578 to
be consistent with the approach that DETNET followed.


> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ** Section 1.
>    Reliable and
>    Available Wireless (RAW) is an effort to provide Deterministic
>    Networking Mechanisms on a multi-hop path that includes a wireless
>    physical layer.
>
> Is this RAW the “RAW WG”?  If so, the WG doesn’t appear to be chartered to
> provide the described solution.
>

[Carlos] It's true that the RAW WG is not chartered as of today to provide
solutions, but it is to provide an architecture/framework. We took the text
from the charter with small adaptations, but I agree that we can probably
rewrite the text to be more precise. Would the following text be more
appropriate?

"The term RAW stands for Reliable and Available Wireless, and refers to the
mechanisms aimed for providing high reliability and availability for IP
connectivity over a wireless medium."


> ** Section 2.5.
>
>    Different safety levels need to be supported, from extremely safety
>    critical ones requiring low latency, such as a WAKE warning - a
>    warning that two aircraft come dangerously close to each other - and
>    high resiliency, to less safety critical ones requiring low-medium
>    latency for services such as WXGRAPH - graphical weather data.
>
> I can appreciate the abstract idea of using certain information for safety
> critical decision making.  However, can more detail be provided to
> translate
> the “safety levels” to requirements of the data link or the “RAW
> protocol”?
> Mentioned already seems to be “low” vs. “low-medium” latency; and “high
> resiliency” which should be read as guaranteed delivery or ability to use
> multiple paths/radio technologies?  Or is “low latency” translated into a
> design as the subsequent text suggests of “small packets” and resiliency
> primarily about “choosing links”
>
> [Carlos] This is a good point to clarify. I will work with the
aeronautical experts in the WG to clarify these points and make the text
more clear.


> ** Section 2.5.*.  Low latency is stated as a requirement a few times.  Can
> this be expressed quantitatively?  Use case owners (and readers) might have
> their own subjective idea of what constitutes “low”.
>

[Carlos] Same as above, we will express this quantitatively in the next
revision of the document.


>
> ** Section 3.1.
>    Such
>    deployment is a mix between industrial automation (i.e., Smart
>    Factories) and multimedia entertainment applications.
>
> In what way is “industrial automation” and “Smart Factories” the same in
> this
> example?  One seems to connote automation of operational technology (as
> opposed
> to IT).  The other seems to be a marketing term for OT building things –
> I’m
> not sure.
>

[Carlos] We used the terms not to be synonyms. We refer to industrial
automation as automating processes in an industrial environment. And we use
"Smart factories" to refer to factories that are actually making use of
automated processes. Note that for example a warehouse making use of some
automated processes could fall under "industrial automation", but it would
not be a "smart factory". Maybe this is too convoluted and it just easier
to remove the "(i.e., Smart Factories)" from the original text. Would you
agree?


> ** Section 3.2.
>       Some non-time-critical tasks may
>       rather use the cloud (predictive maintenance, marketing).
>
> -- Marketing is mentioned as an example of a computational workload
> appropriate
> for the cloud but it isn’t noted as an application in Section 3.1.
> Perhaps it
> should be made more explicit.
>

[Carlos] Good catch. We would add a small description in Section 3.1.


>
> -- If these tasks are “non-time-critical”, why can’t traditional wireless
> technologies address them (i.e., why can’t they be solved without RAW)?
>
> [Carlos]  This is specifically addressed in section 3.4.1. Basically, the
reasons are that these applications that mostly demand reliability.

** Section 4.2.1
>    A rare packet loss is usually admissible, but
>    typically 4 losses in a row will cause an emergency halt of the
>    production and incur a high cost for the manufacturer.
>
> What is the basis for the “4 losses” (as opposed to say 3 or 5)?  Can this
> be
> cited with a reference?
>
> [Carlos] Honestly, I don't remember, but I will check with the
contributors and we will definitely amend the text and/or provide a
reference. Thanks for pointing it out.


> ** Section 6.1.
>       But Wi-Fi has an
>       especially bad reputation among the gaming community.  The main
>       reasons are high latency, lag spikes, and jitter.
>
> This statement is suggestion a subjective assessment of the user
> experience.
> Is it technically accurate?
>

[Carlos] I believe it is accurate in the sense that this is indeed the
reputation it has. I understand the term "reputation" implies subjectivity,
but it is probably a mistake from me as non-native English speaker. I know
from experiments with 5G and gaming to basically improve the gaming
experience over 4G and WiFi, but I think there are no public documents I
can reference. I'll try to find some good reference for this.


> ** Section 6.1.  The use cases seem to overlap:
>
> -- Can one do “real-time mobile gaming” on a “wireless console”?
>
> -- Are “cloud gaming” and “wireless console” mutually exclusive
> categories?
> Can’t an Xbox use Wi-Fi 5 to use the “Xbox Cloud Gaming” service?
>
> [Carlos] You are right, they overlap and they are not meant to be mutually
exclusive. Should we make this explicit in the text?


> ** Section 7.1
>
> the Spanish traffic control has recently introduced
>    a fleet of drones for quicker reactions upon traffic congestion
>    related events
>
> Could a reference please be provided.
>

[Carlos] Yes, we will add one.


>
> ** Section 8.2.  What is “very low latency” in this context?
>

[Carlos] We will quantify that in the next revision.


>
> ** Section 9.1.  I don’t have any insight into how a network
> infrastructure is
> built on an ambulance.  Are these systems all really on the same LAN in
> practice now?  Is the navigation systems connected to the vital signs
> sensor?
> Don’t these discrete functions all function as their own WWAN?
>

[Carlos] I will discuss these points with the people that contributed that
use case to address your comments.


>
> ** Section 9.1.  What is a “radio-WAN”?  Is this the same as a wireless
> WAN?
>

[Carlos] I'd say so, but I will check with the contributors of that
specific section.


>
> ** Section 9.4.  What is “high availability” in this context?
>

[Carlos] We will clarify in the next revision.


>
> Editorial
>

[Carlos] Thanks a lot for all the good catches and clarifying comments. We
will address them all in the next revision.

Thanks a lot!

Carlos


> ** Section 1.  Editorial.  “Deterministic Networking in the IP world …”
> uses
> colloquial, consider rephrasing.
>
> ** Section 1.  Editorial
> So far, Open Standards for Deterministic Networking ...
>
> Why is “Open Standards for Deterministic Networking …” capitalized?  Which
> of
> these are proper nouns?
>
> ** Section 2.3.  Typo. s/accomodate/accommodate/
>
> ** Section 2.4.  Editorial.
> Thus, making use of wireless
>    technologies is a must
>
> Consider alternative language to this colloquial syntax.
>
> ** Section 3.1.  Editorial
>    *  Emergency: safety has to be preserved, and must stop the
>       attraction when a failure is detected.
>
> Consider being clearer on safety for whom – is it the attraction operator
> and
> visitor/rider/bystander?
>
> ** Section 3.3.  Editorial.
>    Wireless also increases the
>    reconfigurability, enabling to update an attraction at a lower cost.
>    The frequent renewal helps to increase the customer loyalty.
>
> This first sentence doesn’t parse for me.  As such, I don’t follow the
> link to
> customer loyalty in the second sentence.  Is the idea here that wireless
> allows
> the attractions to be swapped or adapted more frequently than if a wired
> network was used? In turn, this variability of offerings in the amusement
> park,
> attracts repeat visits by customers.
>
> ** Section 4.2.1.  Editorial.
>    Finally, some industries exhibit
>    hybrid behaviors, like canned soup that will start as a process
>    industry while mixing the food and then operate as a discrete
>    manufacturing when putting the final product in cans and shipping
>    them.
>
> The discrete steps of “process industry”, “discrete manufacturing” aren’t
> explained; and don’t link to the previous narrative of “process control”,
> “factory automation” or “motion control”.
>
> ** Section 4.2.2.  Editorial.  Consider replacing the colloquial phrases:
> --  “Holy Grail of the Industrial Internet of Things”.
>
> -- “carpeted floor over IP”
>
> ** Section 4.3.  Editorial. s/a few thousands of flexions/a few thousand
> flexions/
>
> ** Section 4.4.  Editorial.
>   RAW mechanisms should be
>    able to setup a Track
>  Should “Track” be capitalized?
>
> ** Section 5.3.
>
>    Deployed announcement speakers, for instance along the platforms of
>    the train stations, need the wireless communication to forward the
>    audio traffic in real time.
>
> Why do train stations needed wireless communication (as opposed to wired
> being
> acceptable)?
>
> ** Section 6.1.  Is “Real-Time Mobile Gaming” assuming that the connected
> players and game servers are using the Internet to connect them?  How can
> RAW
> help then?
>
> ** Section 6.1.  Editorial.
> *  Wireless Console Gaming: Playing online on a console has 2 types
>       of internet connectivity, which is either wired or Wi-Fi.
>
> Isn’t the definition of “wireless console gaming” that a wireless
> connection is
> used?  The distinction to wired doesn’t make sense to me.
>
> ** Section 6.4.  Typo. s/importan/important.
>
> ** Section 9.  Editorial. Is an “Instrumented emergency vehicle” only
> scoped to
> “emergency medical vehicles”?  If so, I recommend renaming the section.
>
> ** Section 9.4.  Editorial. Can “radio footprint” be more precisely
> defined.
> Does this mean a seamless hand-off approach is needed between multiple
> base-stations of some kind to keep the radio connected?
>
>
>
>