[rfc-i] Normative information in RFC imagery
Alexis Rossi <alexisrossirsce@gmail.com> Tue, 13 May 2025 22:06 UTC
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From: Alexis Rossi <alexisrossirsce@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 15:00:45 -0700
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Subject: [rfc-i] Normative information in RFC imagery
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Hello, This is a long one, so let me state my goal up front. I am trying to ascertain whether there is community interest in trying to make sure future RFCs can be fully read and understood without relying on information in imagery (SVG or ASCII). This is an accessibility issue, but I think it also may be helpful for people who learn in different ways. We are not talking about trying to address this in older RFCs, just new ones. If there is interest in this, I think the path we would take would be to have an IETF working group attempt to address the issue. * Background The RSWG is currently working on replacing RFC 7996, which allowed the use of SVGs in RFCs. (We would like to make creating SVGs easier for the community.) RFC 7996 contains the following language in the introduction: "Note that in RFCs, the text provides normative descriptions of protocols, systems, etc. Diagrams may be used to help explain concepts more clearly, but they provide supporting details and should not be considered to be complete specifications in themselves." The RSWG draft [1] that has been adopted for the replacement of 7996 currently has similar but stronger language (though softer language has been suggested in thread), and this has lead to a discussion about normative info in imagery: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rswg/E4eBJEmlTo5nX7ITYFvIvjKa2ec/ * Thread Discussion Summary Some people think that we already have the general idea in the community that the text should be normative, and that imagery should be a helpful illustration of the text. (So you could have normative info in an image, but that shouldn't be the ONLY place where it exists.) Other than the above text in RFC7996, this seems to be "folklore" or a generally accepted but not documented norm. Additionally, the point has been made that 7996 is an Informational IAB document (so does not have IETF consensus), and shouldn't govern how the IETF uses imagery. Others have made the point that this has never been an accepted norm for ASCII art. We haven't found a citation that says otherwise (other than 7996). And it seems that in regards to packet diagrams specifically, BCP 22/RFC2360 Section 3.1 [2] actually tells us to put normative info into ASCII art. Additionally, in discussing whether it is even possible to have all normative information in the text, some have asserted (and others have refuted) that some types of information may be too difficult/onerous to represent fully in text, thus making a diagram/image the most reasonable place for the information. * Accessibility ASCII art is not accessible to people using screen readers. It is read as gobbledygook, essentially. ZSo generally there are three ways to make imagery accessible: 1) provide adequate alt/desc text within the code to fully describe the content of a diagram/image to someone using a screen reader (SVG only) 2) use aria labels appropriately to allow a screenreader user to navigate the diagram (SVG only) 3) fully describe the normative information in the text (TXT has all the info needed outside of the ASCII art, and SVG points people to the text) A fourth path has been suggested: using a formal language to describe diagrams. UML was suggested as a possibility. I have not yet found convincing evidence that UML alone is sufficiently accessible to people with visual disabilities. So I think this leads me back to my goal for posting here. Is the community interested in supporting accessibility by trying to make sure future RFCs can be fully read and understood without relying on information in imagery? And thank you for reading this far! Alexis [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-editorial-rswg-svgsinrfcs/ [2] https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2360.html#section-3.1
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative information in RFC imagery Nico Williams
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative information in RFC imagery Alexis Rossi
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative information in RFC imagery Michael Richardson
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative information in RFC imagery Paul Hoffman
- [rfc-i] Normative information in RFC imagery Alexis Rossi
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative information in RFC imagery Paul Duffy (paduffy)
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative information in RFC imagery Brian E Carpenter
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative information in RFC imagery Marc Petit-Huguenin
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative information in RFC imagery Carsten Bormann
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative information in RFC imagery Michael Richardson
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative information in RFC imagery Eliot Lear
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative information in RFC imagery Marc Petit-Huguenin
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative information in RFC imagery Carsten Bormann
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative information in RFC imagery Michael Richardson
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative information in RFC imagery Agent
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative information in RFC imagery Jean Mahoney
- [rfc-i] Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative inf… Marc Petit-Huguenin
- [rfc-i] Description techniques [was Re: Normative… Marc Petit-Huguenin
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative information in RFC imagery Alexis Rossi
- [rfc-i] RFC 9633 SVG is unreadable (was: Normativ… Martin Thomson
- [rfc-i] Re: RFC 9633 SVG is unreadable (was: Norm… StJohns, Michael
- [rfc-i] Re: RFC 9633 SVG is unreadable (was: Norm… Martin Thomson
- [rfc-i] Re: RFC 9633 SVG is unreadable Brian E Carpenter
- [rfc-i] Re: RFC 9633 SVG is unreadable (was: Norm… Carsten Bormann
- [rfc-i] Re: RFC 9633 SVG is unreadable (was: Norm… Martin Thomson
- [rfc-i] Re: RFC 9633 SVG is unreadable James Cloos
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative information in RFC imagery Michael Richardson
- [rfc-i] Re: RFC 9633 SVG is unreadable Jean Mahoney
- [rfc-i] Re: RFC 9633 SVG is unreadable Jean Mahoney
- [rfc-i] Re: RFC 9633 SVG is unreadable (was: Norm… Nico Williams
- [rfc-i] Re: RFC 9633 SVG is unreadable (was: Norm… Carsten Bormann
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative information in RFC imagery Paul Kyzivat
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative information in RFC imagery Nico Williams
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative information in RFC imagery Nico Williams
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative information in RFC imagery Alexis Rossi
- [rfc-i] Re: RFC 9633 SVG is unreadable Brian E Carpenter
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative information in RFC imagery Paul Duffy (paduffy)
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative information in RFC imagery Martin Thomson
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative information in RFC imagery Nico Williams
- [rfc-i] Re: RFC 9633 SVG is unreadable Robert Sparks
- [rfc-i] Re: RFC 9633 SVG is unreadable Nico Williams
- [rfc-i] Re: RFC 9633 SVG is unreadable Brian E Carpenter
- [rfc-i] Re: RFC 9633 SVG is unreadable Martin Thomson
- [rfc-i] Re: checking SVGs (was Re: Re: RFC 9633 S… Martin Thomson
- [rfc-i] Re: RFC 9633 SVG is unreadable StJohns, Michael
- [rfc-i] Re: RFC 9633 SVG is unreadable Brian E Carpenter
- [rfc-i] Re: RFC 9633 SVG is unreadable Carsten Bormann
- [rfc-i] Re: RFC 9633 SVG is unreadable Brian E Carpenter
- [rfc-i] Re: RFC 9633 SVG is unreadable Martin Thomson
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Carsten Bormann
- [rfc-i] Re: Specification vs implementation [was … Nico Williams
- [rfc-i] Re: RFC 9633 SVG is unreadable Michael Richardson
- [rfc-i] Re: RFC 9633 SVG is unreadable Carsten Bormann
- [rfc-i] Specification vs implementation [was Re: … Marc Petit-Huguenin
- [rfc-i] Re: RFC 9633 SVG is unreadable Martin Thomson
- [rfc-i] checking SVGs (was Re: Re: RFC 9633 SVG i… Jean Mahoney
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Marc Petit-Huguenin
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Carsten Bormann
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Paul Kyzivat
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Eric Rescorla
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Carsten Bormann
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Brian E Carpenter
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative information in RFC imagery Nico Williams
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Nico Williams
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Wes Hardaker
- [rfc-i] Re: Description techniques [was Re: Norma… Carsten Bormann
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Marc Petit-Huguenin
- [rfc-i] Re: Description techniques [was Re: Norma… Agent
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Agent
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Carsten Bormann
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Eliot Lear
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Agent
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Salz, Rich
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Wes Hardaker
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Eric Rescorla
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Julian Reschke
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Paul Kyzivat
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Brian E Carpenter
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Brian E Carpenter
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Eliot Lear
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Nico Williams
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Carsten Bormann
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Paul Kyzivat
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Eric Rescorla
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Carsten Bormann
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Paul Kyzivat
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative information in RFC imagery Carsten Bormann
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative information in RFC imagery Carsten Bormann
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Julian Reschke
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Marc Petit-Huguenin
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Paul Kyzivat
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Paul Kyzivat
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Carsten Bormann
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Marc Petit-Huguenin
- [rfc-i] Re: Normative ABNF [was Re: Re: Normative… Eric Rescorla