Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt

Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com> Wed, 24 October 2018 15:46 UTC

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References: <20181019025623.v5da76qrnakohlef@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <61CE8F7B-C12B-4B13-8B48-B199370AC4AB@tzi.org> <20181019122120.qviq46ec5akddel6@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <3d9ffd3c1e704f1db578222750ecf8b3@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <20181019131412.lmqn4xp2frdjddvh@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <2313ec2f4a204e338747119a6e963165@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <20181019135215.fxysqsnmyi4miakl@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <10af6194e1da417da0f3e682d361f9dd@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com>
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Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com
From: Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 08:46:24 -0700
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To: pthubert@cisco.com
Cc: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>, roll-bier-dt@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt
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I won't be on the call today, sorry.

Greg

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 7:54 AM Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <
pthubert@cisco.com> wrote:

> Please consider this then :)
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-thubert-6lo-bier-dispatch/
>
> take care,
>
> Pascal
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
> > Sent: vendredi 19 octobre 2018 15:52
> > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>
> > Cc: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>rg>; roll-bier-dt@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 01:20:11PM +0000, Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
> wrote:
> > > Sure, but the mystery to me is what goes transported with BIER.
> >
> > As said, BIER proper can encapsulate anything deemed important enough to
> get
> > a code point in the BIER encap. I am saying "proper" because ROLL may not
> > want to take RFC8296 given the likely competition with 6LowPan.
> >
> > > Because that is the heart of the problem we are facing in this DT.
> > > If BIER transports a same IP packet to multiple destinations, then
> they must all
> > accept the same packet.
> >
> > More a property of the larger clas of multicasting overall assuming
> tojust copy
> > the payload - and not to modify it.
> >
> > I thought we had killed in last weeks meeting the idea of trying to come
> up with
> > a mechanism that manages to use packet replication (BIER) and then
> modding
> > received copies to fake different per-receiver IP unicast packets
> > - because of the problem of making this architecturally work well with
> higher
> > layers like UDP that also have a notion of an IP (pseudo) header.
> > Too much faking needed. At least thats what i tried to summarize in my
> slides.
> >
> > Aka: We use BIER-TE for unicast packets but then the expectation is that
> there is
> > just one destination, and the whole purpose of BIER-TE is not
> replication but
> > source routing. And we use BIER-TE(/BIER) for IP multicast packets where
> there
> > can be 1 or more destinations.
> >
> > [ Of course there are fun extensions later, e.g.: a unicast packet
> could  still be
> > sent to redundant nodes sharing an IP adddress and therefore  able to
> > receive/process the same packet, but i think thats less likely
> something one
> > would do in a ROLL domain. ]
> >
> > > Moreover, if the destination is not the router indicated by the bit
> > > but a neighbor or a set of neighbors to that router, then the inner
> > > packet must indicate that.
> > > All in all, that tells me that the transported packet is IP multicast.
> >
> > Yes, we have two layers. The BIER layer that only reaches nodes with an
> > assigned BIER bit, and they can communicate potentially any payload
> across
> > BIER, IP or other. And then on top of that there is IP multicast between
> the BIER
> > edge nodes and IP unicast/multicast only nodes. The pictures in the
> slide deck
> > posted intend to show that (that IP multicast building block picture
> still TBD).
> >
> > > What do I miss?
> >
> > I think primarily me wanting to figure out the encap we use within the
> BIER-
> > ROLL domain: RFC8296 vs. 6LowPan+extensions.
> >
> > Cheers
> >     Toerless
> >
> > > Take care,
> > >
> > > Pascal
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
> > > > Sent: vendredi 19 octobre 2018 15:14
> > > > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>
> > > > Cc: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>rg>; roll-bier-dt@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 12:36:06PM +0000, Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
> > wrote:
> > > > > Hello Toerless:
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, there is as Carsten says a multicast support for RPL storing
> > > > > mode, but not
> > > > for non-storing. This is where Carsten's draft comes in to play.
> > > >
> > > > Sure. As said, i may not have correctly captured what Mcr was
> > > > explaining,
> > > >
> > > > > In normal BIER, the bits indicate the routers, don't they? So
> > > > > there's an IP
> > > > packet inside, correct, like in my tunnel mode? But then I expect it
> > > > is the same packet for all destinations. So how does htat work, is
> > > > it a mcast packet or do all the destination have a same IP address?
> > > >
> > > > "Proper BIER" (TM) (the stuff done by BIER-WG) has defined its own
> > > > encapsulation header (RFC8296) that sits on top of MPLS or ethernet
> > > > and that has its own next-proto field/registry, so it can be
> > > > followed by IP or anything else that BIER-WG feels deserves a code
> point in
> > that registry.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers
> > > >     Toerless
> > > >
> > > > > Pascal
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Roll-bier-dt <roll-bier-dt-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of
> > > > > > Toerless Eckert
> > > > > > Sent: vendredi 19 octobre 2018 14:21
> > > > > > To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
> > > > > > Cc: roll-bier-dt@ietf.org
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Roll-bier-dt] roll-bier-dt
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That was me taking notes what Michael said, and maybe i didn't
> > > > > > transcribe it correctly. Hope Michael is subscribed here to
> answer.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think i was more wondering about the suport of compressed IP
> > > > > > multicast headders in 6LowPan because that is unclear to me and
> > > > > > we probably need to take one of the DT meetings to detail more
> > > > > > what extensions we need to do for 6LowPan to support BIER.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers
> > > > > >     Toerless
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 07:45:50AM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> > > > > > > On Oct 19, 2018, at 04:56, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > https://raw.githubusercontent.com/toerless/roll-bier/master/
> > > > > > > > note
> > > > > > > > s/18
> > > > > > > > 1017-roll-bier-notes.txt
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What do you mean with ???RPL does not support multicast.????
> > MOP=3?
> > > > > > > (That is of course storing mode only, and storing mode
> > > > > > > doesn???t exist :-), so
> > > > > > you have a point.
> > > > > > > That???s why we did ccast, to fill in multicast for
> > > > > > > non-storing
> > > > > > > mode.)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Grüße, Carsten
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > ---
> > > > > > tte@cs.fau.de
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Roll-bier-dt mailing list
> > > > > > Roll-bier-dt@ietf.org
> > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/roll-bier-dt
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > ---
> > > > tte@cs.fau.de
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Roll-bier-dt mailing list
> > > Roll-bier-dt@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/roll-bier-dt
> >
> > --
> > ---
> > tte@cs.fau.de
>
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