RE: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Explicit Operations
"Francois Audet" <audet@nortel.com> Mon, 09 April 2007 15:41 UTC
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Subject: RE: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Explicit Operations
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 10:40:42 -0500
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Thread-Topic: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Explicit Operations
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From: Francois Audet <audet@nortel.com>
To: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>, "Elwell, John" <john.elwell@siemens.com>
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Thanks Adam. That's exactly my feeling. > -----Original Message----- > From: Adam Roach [mailto:adam@nostrum.com] > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 08:29 > To: Elwell, John > Cc: Audet, Francois (SC100:3055); SIPPING WG > Subject: Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of > Explicit Operations > > Elwell, John wrote: > > Francois, > > > > Clearly the TISPAN people want more than that. > > > > > > I think we understand that they *want* it to behave that way. > What I believe is getting lost is the cost imposed by the > requirements as written. In particular, there appears to be > no dialog, only a unidirectional declaration of requirements > without listening for any feedback. > > To use an analogy: let's imagine that I wanted to buy a car. > I could write down the list of features I wanted and then > send a representative to the car dealer with that list. Now, > imagine if the car dealer explained that they have something > on the lot that has all of my features for $25,000, *except* > it's not a stick shift -- and that, in fact, a model with > those features *and* a stick shift would be such an odd > special order that it would add $400,000 to the price of the > car because of the need to re-tool the assembly line. > > A sensible representative would take this information back to > me and ask whether the additional cost was warranted. Of > course, I would probably say, "no." > > An insane representative would, without contacting me, raise > a stink about the ridiculous cost for this feature and > attempt to stand their ground, eventually imposing an > additional $400,000 cost on me. > > What I'd like to know for certain is that TISPAN > *understands* the difficulty required to implement this one > very small and rarely-used aspect of the feature, and that > they have explicitly stated that it is important enough to > justify the additional cost it imposes on the solution. > > /a > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Francois Audet [mailto:audet@nortel.com] > >> Sent: 07 April 2007 19:39 > >> To: Elwell, John; Adam Roach; SIPPING WG > >> Subject: RE: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of > >> Explicit Operations > >> > >> Hi John, > >> > >> Do you think that this implementing this feature in > >> the way Adam and I were alluding to, i.e., where queuing > >> is handled by the clients but without some of the more > >> complex "queue management" feature would be acceptable > >> in those countries? > >> > >> That would allow us to have a very simple implemenation > >> without compromising the semantics of SUBSCRIBE or > >> using a separate protocol (BFCP). > >> > >> > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Elwell, John [mailto:john.elwell@siemens.com] > >>> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 11:29 > >>> To: Audet, Francois (SC100:3055); Adam Roach; SIPPING WG > >>> Subject: RE: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of > >>> Explicit Operations > >>> > >>> I know this feature is quite popular in the PSTN residential > >>> market in various countries in Europe, particularly Germany > >>> and also the UK to some extent. Customers seem prepared to > >>> spend a few euro cents for the convenience it gives in a > >>> presence-less environment. So I think the operators of those > >>> networks want to make sure they don't lose this when they > >>> evolve to SIP. Given that in SIP you could do things > >>> differently and hopefully better, PSTN interworking would > >>> appear to be the essential driver behind the TISPAN > >>> requirements, but presumably an important driver in the eyes > >>> of the carriers concerned. For the enterprise market I just > >>> don't see it as important. We used to have it on PBXs right > >>> back in the 70s and 80s and it was popular then, but > >>> voicemail has pretty well taken over in the enterprise. I > >>> hope this sheds some light. > >>> > >>> John > >>> > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Francois Audet [mailto:audet@nortel.com] > >>>> Sent: 05 April 2007 23:18 > >>>> To: Adam Roach; SIPPING WG > >>>> Subject: RE: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Explicit > >>>> Operations > >>>> > >>>> Wouldn't it be possible to do this CCBS/CCNR stuff with a simple > >>>> dialog package, and ditch this "queue management" mechanism? > >>>> > >>>> This seems to me to be a classic case of Engineers-gone-wild. > >>>> > >>>> I see this in the poetzl draft: > >>>> > >>>> Completion of Calls on no Reply (CCNR) provides the > >>>> > >> caller with > >> > >>>> the > >>>> ability to complete a requested call to a callee > >>>> > >>> without having to > >>> > >>>> make a new call attempt when the callee becomes not > >>>> > >> busy after > >> > >>>> having initiated an activity. The CCNR service > >>>> > >> description is > >> > >>>> defined in ETSI EN 301 134 [6]. > >>>> > >>>> The call completion services provide the capability to queue > >>>> several CCBS/CCNR requests to the same callee on a FIFO > >>>> > >>> basis. It > >>> > >>>> therefore requires functionalities like notifying > >>>> > >>> changes of queue > >>> > >>>> states and managing queues. > >>>> > >>>> In other words, we are defining this really complex stuff > >>>> > >>> just because > >>> > >>>> it used to work like this in some ETSI standard for PSTN. > >>>> > >>>> Is there a better justification than that? What am I missing? > >>>> > >>>> Couldn't we handle some basic level of queueing at the endpoints > >>>> themselves, and use a simple dialog package, and avoid all > >>>> > >>> this stuff > >>> > >>>> that creates all the complexity? > >>>> > >>>> This CCBS/CCNR feature is one of the feature that has the most > >>>> variation > >>>> > >>>> in implementations in PSTN that I know of. To me, picking > >>>> > >> a really > >> > >>>> complicated variant and replicating it in SIP (either by > >>>> > >>> bastardizing > >>> > >>>> the protocol, or by using an entirely different protocol > >>>> > >>> altogether) > >>> > >>>> is not a good idea. > >>>> My take is > >>>> that there will be such a small uptake in implementation > >>>> > >>> that it will > >>> > >>>> effectively useful only in a few confined environments > >>>> > >> where the it > >> > >>>> can be mandated by law. > >>>> > >>>> I'd must rather have a simpler easier to implement > version of the > >>>> service. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: Adam Roach [mailto:adam@nostrum.com] > >>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 12:10 > >>>>> To: SIPPING WG > >>>>> Subject: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Explicit > >>>>> > >>>> Operations > >>>> > >>>>> Despite what appeared to be early agreement in the > >>>>> > >> working group > >> > >>>>> (and on the MIG mailing list) that we wanted to > >>>>> > >>> discourage the use > >>> > >>>>> of SUBSCRIBE and NOTIFY as general purpose RPC > >>>>> > >>> mechanisms. This is > >>> > >>>>> the primary objection that I have raised to > >>>>> draft-poetzl-sipping-call-completion, > >>>>> which uses SUBSCRIBE and NOTIFY to manipulate call queue state. > >>>>> > >>>>> In the spirit of sending text, I described an alternate set of > >>>>> mechanisms in draft-roach-sipping-callcomp-bfcp, which > >>>>> > >>> performs the > >>> > >>>>> same task without having implied side effects from the > >>>>> > >>> creation of a > >>> > >>>>> subscription. > >>>>> > >>>>> I'll further note that the use of SUBSCRIBE to both create a > >>>>> subscription and manipulate a call queue falls under the > >>>>> > >>> category of > >>> > >>>>> "one operation with two separate effects." We have a very poor > >>>>> institutional memory indeed if we cannot recall why > >>>>> > >> operations of > >> > >>>>> this nature are Really Bad Ideas (cf. REFER creating a > >>>>> > >>> subscription; > >>> > >>>>> REGISTER with call processing upload; and BYE with an > >>>>> > >>> "Also" header > >>> > >>>>> field). > >>>>> > >>>>> All of this notwithstanding, in Prague, there seemed to > >>>>> > >>> be a curious > >>> > >>>>> indifference to pursuing the path laden with such Really > >>>>> > >>> Bad Ideas. > >>> > >>>>> I suspect that this indifference is a result of the > >>>>> > >>> arguments raised > >>> > >>>>> so far against the mechanism I have proposed, which I have done > >>>>> little to refute so far (largely because I believed that > >>>>> > >>> the merits > >>> > >>>>> of a system with explicit operations were self-evident > >>>>> > >>> enough that > >>> > >>>>> the objections would seem trifling in comparison). > >>>>> > >>>>> As far as I can tell, the objections raised so far have > >>>>> > >>> fallen into > >>> > >>>>> three primary categories: > >>>>> > >>>>> 1. "The use of BFCP is troubling because, in a > >>>>> > >>>> decomposed gateway, > >>>> > >>>>> the BFCP goes to the Media Gateway, while the > >>>>> > >>>> signaling goes to > >>>> > >>>>> the Media Gateway Controller." > >>>>> > >>>>> This objection, raised on one of the slides during > >>>>> > >>> the SIPPING > >>> > >>>>> meeting on March 23rd as the official reason TISPAN > >>>>> > >>>> rejected the > >>>> > >>>>> approach, is based on a simple misconception. > >>>>> > >>>>> The BFCP goes wherever the SDP says the BFCP goes. > >>>>> > >>> In the case > >>> > >>>>> of > >>>>> a decomposed gateway, this could be the Media > >>>>> > >>>> Gateway, the Media > >>>> > >>>>> Gateway Controller, or any other random > >>>>> > >>>> network-connected server > >>>> > >>>>> that the Media Gateway Controller wants. I agree that it > >>>>> probably > >>>>> is most sensible to send it to the Media Gateway > >>>>> > >>>> Controller, and > >>>> > >>>>> this is trivial to achieve. > >>>>> > >>>>> 2. "In the case of PSTN interwork, there is no way to > >>>>> > >>> guarantee > >>> > >>>>> that > >>>>> the ISUP (or other) signaling from the PSTN side > >>>>> > >>> lands on the > >>> > >>>>> same > >>>>> gateway that the client has a BFCP connection to." > >>>>> > >>>>> This is true, and it is a relatively difficult > >>>>> > >>>> problem to solve > >>>> > >>>>> (not impossible, though; I proposed several potential > >>>>> solutions in > >>>>> San Diego). It is meaningless to raise it in > >>>>> > >> objection to an > >> > >>>>> alternate proposal, since it exists in almost > >>>>> > >>>> precisely the same > >>>> > >>>>> form in draft-poetzl-sipping-call-completion; and > >>>>> > >>> any solution > >>> > >>>>> that can be applied to one solution can be applied to > >>>>> > >>>> the other. > >>>> > >>>>> 3. "We don't want to add another protocol." > >>>>> > >>>>> I suspect this argument is the one that is > >>>>> > >>> receiving the most > >>> > >>>>> traction, probably because most of the people > >>>>> > >>> involved in the > >>> > >>>>> discussion are not familiar with BFCP. The protocol > >>>>> > >>> itself is > >>> > >>>>> very > >>>>> straightforward and extremely easy to implement. In fact, > >>>>> exclusively for the purpose of answering this email (and > >>>>> demonstrating this very point), I threw together a BFCP > >>>>> implementation sufficient for implementation of the Call > >>>>> Completion service described in > >>>>> draft-roach-sipping-callcomp-bfcp. > >>>>> It took me two hours, and compiles down to less > >>>>> > >> than 4 kb of > >> > >>>>> object code on an intel processor. It's attached to > >>>>> > >>>> this message > >>>> > >>>>> to help the participants in the conversation > >>>>> > >>>> understand just how > >>>> > >>>>> very little is being added to applications by this > >>>>> > >>>> use of BFCP. > >>>> > >>>>> So, is that it? The first two objections are simply red > >>>>> > >> herrings, > >> > >>>>> and the third is based on a misconception regarding the > >>>>> > >> level of > >> > >>>>> effort required to implement BFCP. Are we really going to > >>>>> > >>> down the > >>> > >>>>> path of doing things incorrectly over what amount to > >>>>> misunderstandings? > >>>>> > >>>>> /a > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> P.S. In case anyone wants a more full-featured BFCP stack, I'll > >>>>> point to the confiance project on SourceForge, available > >>>>> > >>> under the > >>> > >>>>> Academic Freedom License, which is compatible with commercial > >>>>> > >>>> development. See > >>>> > >>>>> http://confiance.sourceforge.net/ > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Sipping mailing list > >>>> > >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sipping > >> > >>>> This list is for NEW development of the application of SIP Use > >>>> sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on > current sip Use > >>>> sip@ietf.org for new developments of core SIP > >>>> > >>>> > > _______________________________________________ Sipping mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sipping This list is for NEW development of the application of SIP Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sip@ietf.org for new developments of core SIP
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Adam Roach
- [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Explicit… Adam Roach
- RE: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Francois Audet
- RE: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Francois Audet
- RE: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Elwell, John
- RE: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Francois Audet
- RE: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Elwell, John
- RE: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Francois Audet
- RE: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Elwell, John
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Adam Roach
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: Various issues Dale.Worley
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Dale.Worley
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Henning Schulzrinne
- RE: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Francois Audet
- RE: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Michael Hammer (mhammer)
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Adam Roach
- RE: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Michael Hammer (mhammer)
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Adam Roach
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Adam Roach
- RE: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Michael Hammer (mhammer)
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Adam Roach
- RE: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Michael Hammer (mhammer)
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Adam Roach
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Xavier Marjou
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Adam Roach
- RE: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Michael Hammer (mhammer)
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Dale.Worley
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Adam Roach
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Vijay K. Gurbani
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Adam Roach
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Dean Willis
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Adam Roach
- RE: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Elwell, John
- AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Huelsemann, Martin
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Adam Roach
- RE: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Elwell, John
- Re: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of … Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Dale.Worley
- Re: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of … Adam Roach
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Dean Willis
- Re: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of … Dean Willis
- AW: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of … Huelsemann, Martin
- Re: AW: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Adam Roach
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Dean Willis
- Re: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of … Adam Roach
- Re: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of … David R Oran
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Adam Roach
- Re: AW: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense… Dale.Worley
- Re: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of … Xavier Marjou
- AW: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of … Huelsemann, Martin
- Re: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of … Dean Willis
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Dean Willis
- Re: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of … Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Adam Roach
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Adam Roach
- RE: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… GARCIN S=?utf-8?B?w6k=?=bastien AERM
- Re: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of … Dean Willis
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Dean Willis
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Dean Willis
- Re: AW: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense… Adam Roach
- Re: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of … Adam Roach
- Re: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of … Adam Roach
- Re: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of … Adam Roach
- Re: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of … Paul Kyzivat
- Re: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of … Adam Roach
- Re: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of … Paul Kyzivat
- Re: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of … Paul Kyzivat
- Re: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of … Adam Roach
- Re: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of … Adam Roach
- Re: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of … Paul Kyzivat
- Re: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of … Dean Willis
- Re: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of … Adam Roach
- Re: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of … Paul Kyzivat
- Re: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of … Dean Willis
- Re: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of … Paul Kyzivat
- Re: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of … Dean Willis
- RE: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… GARCIN S=?utf-8?B?w6k=?=bastien AERM
- Re: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of … Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of Expl… Dean Willis
- AW: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense of … Huelsemann, Martin
- Re: AW: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: AW: AW: [Sipping] Call Completion: In Defense… Dean Willis