Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248bis-05
"Ben Campbell" <ben@nostrum.com> Fri, 17 June 2016 22:07 UTC
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From: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
To: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 17:07:50 -0500
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Cc: stox@ietf.org, draft-ietf-stox-7248bis.all@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248bis-05
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Any thoughts? On 9 Jun 2016, at 17:37, Ben Campbell wrote: > Hi Peter, > > > I have a couple of questions about the implications of the new > "presence authorization" concept, and a couple of editorial nits. > Otherwise, I think this is ready for IETF last call. It might make > sense to go ahead with the last call, and address these with any last > call comments--but I'd like to have an initial round of conversation > about the presence authorization first. > > - in 5.2.3, whose "authorization" is canceled? If the SIP contact has > a reciprocal subscription back to the xmpp contact’s presence, is > that impacted by this unsubscribe action? Or is the SIP user expected > to remove the authorization for the xmpp user to see her presence > info? > > - in 5.3.1, I _think_ the flow creates both an authorization and a > notification dialog. If the SIP user unsubscribes, and resubscribes > (that is, tears down the notification dialog and creates a new one), > is there any difference in the flow due to the fact the XMPP server > has authorization state for the SIP user? (Would F29 and F30 still > happen?) > > > Nits: > > - 1, 5th paragraph: s/specfic/specific/ > > - 5.2.2, first paragraph, last sentence: I suspect "whenever" should > be "... sufficiently in advance of when..." > > > > > > > > > On 25 May 2016, at 15:03, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > >> Yes, I think it's ready to go. I can give it a once-over consistency >> check first if you'd like, though. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Peter >> >> On 5/25/16 1:55 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >>> Hi Peter, >>> >>> I'm catching up on some backlog. Is this version ready to go in your >>> opinion, or was there more work to do? >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Ben. >>> >>> On 28 Apr 2016, at 13:47, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>> >>>> I just submitted -08 to address this issue (and clean up some >>>> related >>>> text and examples). >>>> >>>> On 4/28/16 10:00 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>>>> Good point. I think "notification dialog" sounds right. I'm trying >>>>> to >>>>> avoid the term "subscription"... >>>>> >>>>> Sent from mobile, might be terse >>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 28, 2016, at 8:19 AM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 28 Apr 2016, at 9:13, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 3/20/16 4:45 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>>>>>>> A further thought... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 09/28/2015 09:32 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 28 Sep 2015, at 21:39, Peter Saint-Andre - &yet wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 9/24/15 11:55 AM, Ben Campbell wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <snip/> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, how does this violate the SIP semantic? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> There's a mismatch in the meaning of subscribe. Treating a >>>>>>>>>>>> SIP >>>>>>>>>>>> subscription as if it were long-lived means the gateway >>>>>>>>>>>> follows the >>>>>>>>>>>> XMPP subscription model, not the SIP subscription model. A >>>>>>>>>>>> gateway >>>>>>>>>>>> implementer needs to choose which model to honor, and if it >>>>>>>>>>>> chooses >>>>>>>>>>>> the XMPP model then it's not honoring the SIP model (and >>>>>>>>>>>> vice-versa). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I think this depends on the resolution to the previous >>>>>>>>>>> comment, >>>>>>>>>>> but I >>>>>>>>>>> would say that if the protoocl behavior expectations of the >>>>>>>>>>> SIP >>>>>>>>>>> subscriber are met, the semantic has not been violated. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Maybe. :-) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It still seems to me that the gateway is enforcing one model >>>>>>>>>> or the >>>>>>>>>> other. Perhaps "violate" is a strong word in this context, >>>>>>>>>> though. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think we may be reading too much into the "ephemeral" >>>>>>>>> subscription >>>>>>>>> model, while still trying to think of an xmpp subscription and >>>>>>>>> a SIP >>>>>>>>> subscription of modeling the same thing. Both XMPP and SIP >>>>>>>>> have an >>>>>>>>> ephemeral component and a long-lived component. In XMPP, the >>>>>>>>> subscription is long lived, and the presence session is >>>>>>>>> relatively >>>>>>>>> ephemeral. In SIP, the authorization policy, and the presence >>>>>>>>> of an >>>>>>>>> entity on a contact list are long lived, and the subscription >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> ephemeral. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So if we think of an XMPP subscription as equivalent to SIP >>>>>>>>> subscriber >>>>>>>>> authorization, and an XMPP presence session as equivalent to a >>>>>>>>> SIP >>>>>>>>> subscription, I think we can avoid violence to the assumptions >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> either >>>>>>>>> side. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That too is helpful toward a better description of the mismatch >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> models. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I propose to add the following paragraph to the introduction: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Although specifications for both SIP and XMPP use the term >>>>>>> "subscription", the term is employed in different ways. In >>>>>>> SIP, a >>>>>>> "subscription" is the mechanism whereby a subscriber requests >>>>>>> presence notifications from the contact over a relatively >>>>>>> short >>>>>>> period of time, renewed as necessary to keep receiving >>>>>>> presence >>>>>>> notifications. By contrast, in XMPP a "subscription" is >>>>>>> essentially >>>>>>> shorthand for a long-lived presence authorization. To >>>>>>> prevent >>>>>>> confusion, this document uses the term "notification request" >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> SIP subscriptions and the term "presence authorization" for >>>>>>> XMPP >>>>>>> subscriptions. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Peter, >>>>>> >>>>>> I think this is on the right track. But I'm afraid SIP people >>>>>> might >>>>>> confuse "notification request" with "NOTIFY request", i.e. the >>>>>> NOTIFY message itself. >>>>>> >>>>>> To put things is SIP terms, would "subscription dialog" or >>>>>> "notification dialog" work? (Or maybe just "dialog"?) >>>>>> >>>>>>> Then modify the rest of the document accordingly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I started making these changes last night and will post a >>>>>>> revised >>>>>>> I-D either today or tomorrow. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Peter >> >> _______________________________________________ >> stox mailing list >> stox@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stox > > _______________________________________________ > stox mailing list > stox@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stox
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Ben Campbell
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Ben Campbell
- [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248bis-05 Ben Campbell
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Ben Campbell
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Ben Campbell
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Ben Campbell
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre - &yet
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Saúl Ibarra Corretgé
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Ben Campbell
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Ben Campbell
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Ben Campbell
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Ben Campbell
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Ben Campbell
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Ben Campbell
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Ben Campbell
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Ben Campbell
- Re: [Stox] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-stox-7248b… Peter Saint-Andre