Re: [tcpm] 793bis: TCP Quiet Time

This discussion seems to be overlooking the effect of timestamps.

Joe

> On Dec 18, 2019, at 9:39 PM, Matt Mathis <mattmathis=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
> 
> I am under the impression that web servers do something different:  Normally the client sends the FIN, and the server holds FIN wait, but often discards it before 2MSL to reduce memory pressure, however if the server receives a new SYN for the same connection 4tuple (before it is discarded), the server has the option to continue in the same sequence space, one byte after the FIN.
> 
> I haven't looked, but what happens if a connection is in FIN wait, and a new SYN arrives?
> 
> Thanks,
> --MM--
> The best way to predict the future is to create it.  - Alan Kay
> 
> We must not tolerate intolerance;
>        however our response must be carefully measured: 
>             too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of control;
>             too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval.
> 
> 
> On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 8:16 PM Neal Cardwell <ncardwell=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 8:28 PM Yuchung Cheng
> <ycheng=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 1:33 PM Wesley Eddy <wes@mti-systems.com <mailto:wes@mti-systems.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > > I don't think I noticed anyone responding to Gorry's comment below, and
> > > I haven't made any alterations in the 793bis draft with regard to this
> > > (other than fixing some spelling mistakes).  I wanted to pull this into
> > > its own thread in case other people have thoughts or would like to
> > > discuss further what the quiet time concept's relevance is in 2020.
> > I probably am missing something. What's the issue of the text? Linux
> > to my knowledge does
> > not implement this quiet time.
> > But there are other injection attacks or basic checksum issues etc to
> > corrupt TCP. (Serious) application that solely relying on TCP's
> > integrity is signing up for troubles already ...
> 
> I would agree with Yuchung's remarks and the general point that the
> "TCP Quiet Time Concept" from RFC 793 does not seem to be of practical
> importance today, from a number of perspectives:
> 
> o I'm not aware of any major TCP implementation that actually follows
> the "TCP Quiet Time" approach.
> 
> o Most production applications AFAIK end up using SO_REUSEADDR,
> indicating a need to reuse ports quickly and a lack of concern about
> this kind of issue with old packets ending up mixed into new
> connections.
> 
> o Applications that care about this should be using cryptography.
> 
> o Users today expect to be able to reboot a machine and get back on
> the network in less than 2 minutes.
> 
> best,
> neal
> 
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