Re: [TICTOC] Problem statement

["Greg Dowd" <[e-mail]>]

http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/ntp.html
and Mill's book on NTP are excellent sources for material on security in
the world of time transfer.
 
  
Greg Dowd
gdowd at symmetricom dot com (antispam format)
Symmetricom, Inc.
www.symmetricom.com <blocked::http://www.symmetricom.com/> 
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler" Albert
Einstein
 


________________________________

	From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]]
On Behalf Of Pietilainen, Antti (NSN - FI/Espoo)
	Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 4:30 AM
	To: ext Yaakov Stein; Doug Arnold; ext Danny Mayer;
[e-mail]
	Subject: Re: [TICTOC] Problem statement
	
	
	Yaakov,
	 
	What you said may be true but it does not change the validity of
my statement: It is incorrect to claim that IEEE 1588 committee did not
come up with a security mechanism. Thus, my previous comment still
applies.
	 
	By the way, "zero-knowledge proof of time", "breaking the loop
of authentication requiring time", and "time requiring authentication"
are all new terms. At least I did not find any hits in Google except the
two to the tictoc minutes from Paris. There must be some references that
describe these problems. Could you provide a pointer to a reference (or
pointers) for the group so that the validity of the terms could be
reviewed?
	 
	Quick comment for Danny Mayer. IETF is one of the organizations
that may define IEEE 1588 profiles. One should check, though, how free
hands IEEE 1588 profile makers have. 
	 
	Antti


________________________________

		From: ext Yaakov Stein [mailto:[e-mail]] 
		Sent: 30 July, 2008 13:49
		To: Pietilainen, Antti (NSN - FI/Espoo); ext Doug
Arnold; [e-mail]
		Subject: RE: [TICTOC] Problem statement
		
		
		Antii
		 
		We could discuss the annex at some later meeting,
		however, the annex you mention does not address the main
concerns of a security mechanism for timing,
		namely zero-knowledge proof of time and breaking the
loop of authentication requiring time
		and time requiring authentication (see the relevant
slide from the interim meeting report).
		 
		Y(J)S

________________________________

		From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Pietilainen, Antti (NSN -
FI/Espoo)
		Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 1:45 PM
		To: ext Doug Arnold; [e-mail]
		Subject: Re: [TICTOC] Problem statement
		
		
		Doug,
		You said that the IEEE 1588 committee failed to come up
with a security mechanism. However, it did come up with one in the form
of a security protocol annex. It is informative and experimental but it
was overviewed by NIST security experts. Consequently, I propose to
re-word your statement so that the existing security annex is credited
somehow. I also propose to start possible security work by seeing how
far one can go with the existing annex. You might include Ron Cohen as
cc so he has the option to comment.
		Antti 


________________________________

			From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of ext Doug Arnold
			Sent: 30 July, 2008 13:23
			To: [e-mail]
			Subject: [TICTOC] Problem statement
			
			
			Comment on TICTOC problem statement:
draft-bryant-tictoc-probstat-02.txt
			 
			The need for precise time and frequency transfer
in engineered LANs is gernally met by IEEE 1588-2008.  Such networks
include high speed printing presses and other industrial automation
applications, power utility substation sync, etc.  However the 1588
committee failed to come up with a security mechanism.  So secure time
and frequency transfer in engineered LANs could be one of the charters
for TICTOC.
			 
			//Doug

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