Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts
Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net> Thu, 07 April 2022 13:20 UTC
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From: Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net>
To: Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com>
Cc: "tsvwg@ietf.org" <tsvwg@ietf.org>, Wesley Eddy <wes@mti-systems.com>, "Black, David" <David.Black@dell.com>
References: <7dd8896c-4cd8-9819-1f2a-e427b453d5f8@mti-systems.com> <000B4333-CBD4-43D0-8331-1872ACD1518C@gmail.com> <c023ab9f-29e0-d526-f29b-01c8c97cd622@bobbriscoe.net> <3a893f21-aded-c1d0-c101-861c97a76636@bobbriscoe.net>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/Bthg3orBBE09Q45HAREXZgoLgcM>
Subject: Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts
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Jonathan, Third attempt: pls respond to the thread below. We have not seen a response for 7 weeks now. You have made the dramatic claim that the L4S DualQ provides a fast lane, but your experiment doesn't even do an A/B comparison (comparing the throughput of your 'tweaked' flow with one classified as ECT0 rather than ECT1). Koen's experiments showed that throughput is identical whether ECT0 or ECT1 for a flow presumed to be like yours (about 70% of link capacity and unresponsive). https://github.com/L4STeam/l4steam.github.io/tree/master/overload-results#readme In other words: your claim that there is a fast lane or throughput bonus seems to be false. So, the WG either needs you to do a proper A/B experiment or to explain your 'tweak' in sufficient detail for someone else to reproduce your results. Otherwise we can only assume that you are finding it difficult to admit a mistake (given you are clearly following and responding to other IETF business). I notice that a reference to your experiment is in the Shepherd's writeup for the DualQ, presumably at your request. I'm afraid, if you expect your experiments to be referenced, especially when accompanied by such dramatic claims, you need to respond to queries and criticisms in reasonable time. Bob On 23/03/2022 18:44, Bob Briscoe wrote: > Jonathan, > > I notice that you have returned to responding to IETF-related emails > in the last few days. > The long email thread started below (or that following Koen's similar > response to you sent at roughly the same time) are still waiting for > you to confirm whether your experiment effectively disabled congestion > control, even though it said it didn't. Because, if so, sending the > same traffic into the C queue would have achieved just as much > throughput as sending into the L queue. > > Reason: the accusation that the L queue of the DualQ coupled AQM > provides a 'fast-lane' is contrary to everything we stand for, so this > point needs to be cleared up. > > > Bob > > On 17/02/2022 18:33, Bob Briscoe wrote: >> Jonathan, >> >> David has pointed me at the description of your scenario about a >> throughput bonus that he was talking about in the interim yesterday, >> and I have traced it back to an experiment you described in the paper >> linked in your August posting below. >> >> 1/ Firstly, let's get a goal straight. In the L4S architecture, where >> it offers either an FQ or a DualQ option, it says: >> The L4S architecture does not require the IETF to commit to >> one approach over the other, because it supports both, so that >> the 'market' can decide. Nonetheless, in the spirit of 'Do >> one thing and do it well' [McIlroy78 <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-l4s-arch#ref-McIlroy78>], the DualQ option >> provides low delay without prejudging the issue of flow-rate >> control. Then, flow rate policing can be added separately if >> desired. >> Do you understand and accept that as a goal of the L4S activity, >> irrespective of whether you would advocate per-flow throughput >> control yourself? >> >> 2/ Turning to your scenario, you say the following: >> "Both flows were configured to use CUBIC congestion control with ECN >> negotiated, but one was additionally tweaked to set ECT(1) instead of >> ECT(0) on all >> data segments, and to pace its output at 40Mbps." >> Does "pace" mean sending at 40Mb/s irrespective of congestion feedback? >> >> You say "This latter measure [the pacing] prevents the L queue from >> seeing any need to apply congestion signals, because it is always empty." >> However, in the scenario shown, although the L queue is indeed always >> empty, it will see a high level of congestion signals (~10% in this >> case) via the coupling. >> >> Your paper reads as if you don't understand how the coupled AQM >> works. So I don't know whether you /thought/ the L queue would see no >> marking, or whether you actually measured the marking. If you found >> none, there must have been something wrong with your setup. >> >> If we assume your setup was fine, then the 'tweaked' ECT(1) CUBIC >> flow would have seen about 10% ECN marking which would have driven >> its rate down well below 40Mb/s. This is why I suspect that the >> 40Mb/s pacing was actually unresponsive pacing. >> >> If so, the DualQ would have been working as intended. This is not a >> 'fast lane' or a 'bonus' to L4S. Because whether you had fed the >> 'tweaked' unresponsive 40Mb/s flow into the L queue or the C queue, >> it would have got 40Mb/s. Because that's what unresponsive traffic >> gets in a FIFO, which is what the DualQ is intended to emulate (as in >> the quote at the start). Then the operator can add per-flow rate >> policing if it wants to, just as it can in a FIFO today (but hardly >> any do). >> >> >> >> Bob >> >> On 26/08/2021 23:20, Jonathan Morton wrote: >>>> On 29 Jul, 2021, at 7:18 pm, Wesley Eddy<wes@mti-systems.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> This message is starting a combined working group last call on 3 of the L4S drafts: >>>> >>>> - Architecture:https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-l4s-arch/ >>>> >>>> - DualQ:https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-aqm-dualq-coupled/ >>>> >>>> - ECN ID:https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id/ >>>> >>>> The WGLC will last through 4 weeks from today, and then we'll see what to do next. Please submit any comments you have on these to the TSVWG list in that timeframe. >>> I have read through these drafts more times than I really wanted to, and frankly can't shake the feeling of listening to a mistuned piano whilst doing so. I hereby object to the advancement of these drafts to the next stage of publication, as they are clearly in no state to do so. >>> >>> My detailed comments, which among other things provide a technical justification for the bullet points read out by David Black during the recent meeting, are available here: >>> >>> https://sce.dnsmgr.net/downloads/L4S-WGLC2-objection-details.pdf >>> >>> - Jonathan Morton >> >> -- >> ________________________________________________________________ >> Bob Briscoehttp://bobbriscoe.net/ > > -- > ________________________________________________________________ > Bob Briscoehttp://bobbriscoe.net/ -- ________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoehttp://bobbriscoe.net/
- [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Wesley Eddy
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ruediger.Geib
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Smith, Kevin, Vodafone
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Vidhi Goel
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts: DualQ AQM Gorry Fairhurst
- [tsvwg] Updated review: start of WGLC on L4S draf… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts: draft-ie… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts: draft-ie… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ermin Sakic
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Neal Cardwell
- [tsvwg] L4S Editorial Reviews (was: start of WGLC… Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Yuchung Cheng
- [tsvwg] How an L4S network node should treat ECT(… Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] How an L4S network node should treat … Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S Editorial Reviews (was: start of … Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Kuhn Nicolas
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Livingood, Jason
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Glenn Deen
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Holland, Jake
- Re: [tsvwg] How an L4S network node should treat … Holland, Jake
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts C. M. Heard
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Steven Blake
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Dave Taht
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Luca Muscariello
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts David Pullen
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ranganathan, Ram
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Adi Masputra
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Pete Heist
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Christoph Paasch
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S Editorial Reviews (was: start of … Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Flinck, Hannu (Nokia - FI/Espoo)
- Re: [tsvwg] Fwd: start of WGLC on L4S drafts Sowmini Varadhan
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ozer, Sebnem
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Tommy Pauly
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Asad Sajjad Ahmed
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Uma Chunduri
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Tilmans, Olivier (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Vividh Siddha
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts philip.eardley
- Re: [tsvwg] [EXTERNAL] Re: start of WGLC on L4S d… Finkelstein, Jeff (CCI-Atlanta)
- Re: [tsvwg] [EXTERNAL] Re: start of WGLC on L4S d… Leif Hedstrom
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Greg White
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Karthik Sundaresan
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Rodney W. Grimes
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Stuart Cheshire
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Jerome Henry (jerhenry)
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts alex.burr@ealdwulf.org.uk
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Scheffenegger, Richard
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Jerome Henry (jerhenry)
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Gorry (erg)
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Wesley Eddy
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Wesley Eddy
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Wesley Eddy
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts alex.burr@ealdwulf.org.uk
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ruediger.Geib
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ruediger.Geib
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ruediger.Geib
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Pete Heist
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Holland, Jake
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Holland, Jake
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ruediger.Geib
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Pete Heist
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Greg White
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ruediger.Geib
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ruediger.Geib
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ruediger.Geib
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Luca Muscariello
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ruediger.Geib
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Luca Muscariello
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Luca Muscariello
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- [tsvwg] Scheduling words in aqm-dualq-coupled (wa… Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts: DualQ AQM Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts: DualQ AQM Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts: DualQ AQM Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts: DualQ AQM Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] Updated review: start of WGLC on L4S … Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] Updated review: start of WGLC on L4S … Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] Updated review: start of WGLC on L4S … Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] Updated review: start of WGLC on L4S … Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] Updated review: start of WGLC on L4S … Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] Updated review: start of WGLC on L4S … Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts: DualQ AQM Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts: DualQ AQM Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts: DualQ AQM Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts: DualQ AQM Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts: draft-ie… Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts: draft-ie… Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Holland, Jake
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- [tsvwg] Fwd: start of WGLC on L4S drafts: draft-i… Gorry Fairhurst
- [tsvwg] Fwd: start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] [EXTERNAL] Fwd: start of WGLC on L4S … Praveen Balasubramanian
- [tsvwg] Fwd: start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Pete Heist
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Pete Heist
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Pete Heist
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Pete Heist
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts philip.eardley
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts: draft-ie… Gorry Fairhurst
- [tsvwg] Changes to normative text in ecn-l4s-id a… Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] Changes to normative text in ecn-l4s-… Pete Heist
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Holland, Jake
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Holland, Jake
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe