Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts
Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net> Mon, 25 October 2021 20:05 UTC
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To: philip.eardley=40bt.com@dmarc.ietf.org, wes@mti-systems.com, tsvwg@ietf.org
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From: Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net>
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts
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Phil, On 26/08/2021 09:08, philip.eardley=40bt.com@dmarc.ietf.org wrote: > Some comments on the Architecture draft. > > It is a nice document, thanks for all the work. > Some minor suggestions that I think are easy to resolve. > > Section 1 Intro > Para 1- maybe some refs could be added, eg "spikes of hundreds of milliseconds are common" [BB] That comes from a slow start of a short RTT flow in fast links with a state of the art AQM, which is generally tuned to respond over a max RTT (e.g. 100ms). Or multiple parallel flow starts. I've added a couple of references, which are the evaluations of the two main families of solutions prepared by those who developed them: [COBALT] (which also compares with FQ_CoDel) and [DOCSIS3AQM] which evaluates CoDel, SFQ-CoDel and PIE. [COBALT] Palmei, J., Gupta, S., Imputato, P., Morton, J., Tahiliani, M., Avallone, S., and D. Taeht, "Design and Evaluation of COBALT Queue Discipline", In Proc. IEEE Int'l Symp. Local and Metropolitan Area Networks (LANMAN'19) 2019:1-6, July 2019, <https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/8847054>. [DOCSIS3AQM] White, G., "Active Queue Management Algorithms for DOCSIS 3.0; A Simulation Study of CoDel, SFQ-CoDel and PIE in DOCSIS 3.0 Networks", CableLabs Technical Report , April 2013, <{http://www.cablelabs.com/wp- content/uploads/2013/11/ Active_Queue_Management_Algorithms_DOCSIS_3_0.pdf>. I think we'll need to temper "common" to "not uncommon" though, 'cos it's difficult to be sure how common the test scenarios are in practice. > and "queuing is typically configured to cause overall network delay to roughly double relative to expected base (unloaded) path delay." [BB] "Roughly double" refers to the 1 BDP rule of thumb for buffer sizing in access links with low stat mux. I've cited the well-known SIGCOMM'04 paper on 'Sizing Router Buffers'. Altho this is primarily about why the rule does /not/ apply where flows are highly multiplexed (core networks), it starts by explaining the 1 BDP rule for access networks. > Section 2 L4S Architecture Overview > I think you could expand this section a little to provide a 'protocol model' (RFC4101: "to answer three basic questions: 1. What problem is the protocol trying to achieve? 2. What messages are being transmitted and what do they mean? 3. What are the important, but unobvious, features of the protocol?") > The intro does a good job of answering question 1. > For me, S2 should lay out (at a high-level) the solution. The current Section gives the 'components' without spelling out how they fit together, and also includes justification and background (about state of the art), which I think would be better to discuss separately. Also, it's stated that ECT(1) and CE are used, but not how. I think it would be good to include a figure here (Fig 1, or some version) [BB] OK I've caved to your demands, esp. given I've batted off a number of similar comments in the past. But first, I've added a Document Roadmap section at the end of the Introduction to explain that the way the document is written deliberately starts with assertion not explanation. Then the rationale follows later. Some readers prefer to just be told. Others prefer to know why. This serves both. It's done this way, because, if the reader doesn't have the whole picture, they can get lost in all the justification before the big picture has become clear. Then I've started the Architecture Overview with a para that gives the 1-minute explanation based around the 3 parts. Then I've changed the order of the 3 parts, to put the host first, 'cos scalable CC is the thing that creates the low latency. And I've moved the explanation of the problem with Classic and why scalable CC solves it from the terminology section to here. I won't paste it all here, I'll post it in a few hours time anyway. I haven't moved Fig 1 to here. Excuse: This is a symptom of the document having originally been written with the DualQ as /the/ architecture. Then we made FQ and DualQ equally important, but still had Fig 1 in this section to illustrate the DualQ side. Then we were asked to explain the DualQ and FQ solutions more fully (in §4.2) rather than relying on the dualq draft, and we were asked to move the DualQ figure down into §4.1. > Section 4.2 > Fig 1 > The '1' between the functions Mark and Scheduler could be explained? [BB] s/Then the scheduler can serve the L4S queue with priority/ /Then the scheduler can serve the L4S queue with priority (denoted by the '1' on the priority input)/ That's common scheduler notation apparently. > > I found S4.2 a bit hard to parse. I think my issue is that the intro para implies that bullets are about different per flow options. Bullets b and c are about this, but bullet a is (I think) a solution without per flow, and is actually the preferred approach. Bullet a also includes explanation of the dual queue that would apply to any solution. > Perhaps: re-write the intro para, especially delete the "Nevertheless" sentence, make bullet (a) main text and explain dual q etc. Then say there are different per flow options, and start bullet (a) by stating it is the option without per-flow. [BB] OK, we had obviously confused you (so presumably others as well): I've added this sentence to introduce the table, and I've added a heading at the start of each bullet: "The following bullets describe the known arrangements: a) the DualQ Coupled AQM with an L4S AQM in one queue coupled from a Classic AQM in the other; b) Per-Flow Queues with an instance of a Classic and an L4S AQM in each queue; c) Dual queues with per-flow AQMs, but no per-flow queues:" I've also added a reference to the Linux patch that adds the necessary classification to the FQ_CoDel qdisc in order to implement (b). BTW, there isn't a "preferred approach", from the IETF's point of view. > Section 8.3 > Is "catastrophically" the best word? [BB] Yes ;) Thank you for all these. Some were quite hard, but necessary. Cheers Bob > > Best wishes > Phil > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: tsvwg <tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Wesley Eddy >> Sent: 29 July 2021 17:18 >> To: tsvwg@ietf.org >> Subject: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts >> >> This message is starting a combined working group last call on 3 of the L4S drafts: >> >> - Architecture: >> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf >> .org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-ietf-tsvwg-l4s- >> arch%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cphilip.eardley%40bt.com%7Cb44881804bed467 >> 1142f08d952ac8c68%7Ca7f356889c004d5eba4129f146377ab0%7C0%7C0%7C637 >> 631723313409962%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJ >> QIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=fATwA9c >> bixSYOkh3vM2IugJ29oPEpvdgEIxbhAx6lMw%3D&reserved=0 >> >> - DualQ: >> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf >> .org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-ietf-tsvwg-aqm-dualq- >> coupled%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cphilip.eardley%40bt.com%7Cb44881804bed >> 4671142f08d952ac8c68%7Ca7f356889c004d5eba4129f146377ab0%7C0%7C0%7C >> 637631723313419949%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiL >> CJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=PR8Rj >> 3%2BmElcld7NBD7TxOgdkkvEyvbjda2qeUANy%2FAY%3D&reserved=0 >> >> - ECN ID: >> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf >> .org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s- >> id%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cphilip.eardley%40bt.com%7Cb44881804bed46711 >> 42f08d952ac8c68%7Ca7f356889c004d5eba4129f146377ab0%7C0%7C0%7C63763 >> 1723313419949%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIj >> oiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=oAg1Pi24Z >> Uc4lZK9zwtXA95tm%2F%2B5Y9V2Fz8pEmBMv9g%3D&reserved=0 >> >> The WGLC will last through 4 weeks from today, and then we'll see what to do >> next. Please submit any comments you have on these to the TSVWG list in that >> timeframe. >> >> The chairs are considering a possible virtual interim following the close in order to >> work through feedback received. >> >> The work on the L4S operational guidance draft is continuing in parallel, but that draft >> is not being last called yet. >> -- ________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/
- [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Wesley Eddy
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ruediger.Geib
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Smith, Kevin, Vodafone
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Vidhi Goel
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts: DualQ AQM Gorry Fairhurst
- [tsvwg] Updated review: start of WGLC on L4S draf… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts: draft-ie… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts: draft-ie… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ermin Sakic
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Neal Cardwell
- [tsvwg] L4S Editorial Reviews (was: start of WGLC… Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Yuchung Cheng
- [tsvwg] How an L4S network node should treat ECT(… Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] How an L4S network node should treat … Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S Editorial Reviews (was: start of … Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Kuhn Nicolas
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Livingood, Jason
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Glenn Deen
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Holland, Jake
- Re: [tsvwg] How an L4S network node should treat … Holland, Jake
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts C. M. Heard
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Steven Blake
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Dave Taht
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Luca Muscariello
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts David Pullen
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ranganathan, Ram
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Adi Masputra
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Pete Heist
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Christoph Paasch
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S Editorial Reviews (was: start of … Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Flinck, Hannu (Nokia - FI/Espoo)
- Re: [tsvwg] Fwd: start of WGLC on L4S drafts Sowmini Varadhan
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ozer, Sebnem
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Tommy Pauly
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Asad Sajjad Ahmed
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Uma Chunduri
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Tilmans, Olivier (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Vividh Siddha
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts philip.eardley
- Re: [tsvwg] [EXTERNAL] Re: start of WGLC on L4S d… Finkelstein, Jeff (CCI-Atlanta)
- Re: [tsvwg] [EXTERNAL] Re: start of WGLC on L4S d… Leif Hedstrom
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Greg White
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Karthik Sundaresan
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Rodney W. Grimes
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Stuart Cheshire
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Jerome Henry (jerhenry)
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts alex.burr@ealdwulf.org.uk
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Scheffenegger, Richard
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Jerome Henry (jerhenry)
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Gorry (erg)
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Wesley Eddy
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Wesley Eddy
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Wesley Eddy
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts alex.burr@ealdwulf.org.uk
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ruediger.Geib
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ruediger.Geib
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ruediger.Geib
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Pete Heist
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Holland, Jake
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Holland, Jake
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ruediger.Geib
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Pete Heist
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Greg White
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ruediger.Geib
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ruediger.Geib
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ruediger.Geib
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Luca Muscariello
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Ruediger.Geib
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Luca Muscariello
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Luca Muscariello
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- [tsvwg] Scheduling words in aqm-dualq-coupled (wa… Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts: DualQ AQM Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts: DualQ AQM Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts: DualQ AQM Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts: DualQ AQM Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] Updated review: start of WGLC on L4S … Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] Updated review: start of WGLC on L4S … Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] Updated review: start of WGLC on L4S … Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] Updated review: start of WGLC on L4S … Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] Updated review: start of WGLC on L4S … Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] Updated review: start of WGLC on L4S … Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts: DualQ AQM Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts: DualQ AQM Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts: DualQ AQM Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts: DualQ AQM Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts: draft-ie… Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts: draft-ie… Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Holland, Jake
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- [tsvwg] Fwd: start of WGLC on L4S drafts: draft-i… Gorry Fairhurst
- [tsvwg] Fwd: start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] [EXTERNAL] Fwd: start of WGLC on L4S … Praveen Balasubramanian
- [tsvwg] Fwd: start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Pete Heist
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Pete Heist
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Pete Heist
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Pete Heist
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts philip.eardley
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts: draft-ie… Gorry Fairhurst
- [tsvwg] Changes to normative text in ecn-l4s-id a… Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] Changes to normative text in ecn-l4s-… Pete Heist
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Holland, Jake
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Holland, Jake
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] start of WGLC on L4S drafts Bob Briscoe