Re: [tsvwg] Regarding DTLS and UDP options

Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu> Mon, 17 April 2017 21:20 UTC

Return-Path: <touch@isi.edu>
X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B915512F255 for <tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 17 Apr 2017 14:20:10 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.901
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iNHRkxGgvR5d for <tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 17 Apr 2017 14:20:09 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from nitro.isi.edu (nitro.isi.edu [128.9.208.207]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B89EF129449 for <tsvwg@ietf.org>; Mon, 17 Apr 2017 14:20:09 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [128.9.160.211] (mul.isi.edu [128.9.160.211]) (authenticated bits=0) by nitro.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v3HLJSRm019702 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 17 Apr 2017 14:19:28 -0700 (PDT)
To: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
References: <CACL_3VFeJs7KzG9Bchh15bfZ3CmaOPWcfisEreNoGYK5CsEJ+g@mail.gmail.com> <3a4a6b78-8146-de4c-6246-7bd09de44f1c@isi.edu> <CACL_3VFkr3mGe-yTbvHrTZcKVCpEv3FeSOyoShUxCK5+9Tdqqg@mail.gmail.com> <c79fe3d0-8567-ea7d-72fc-bd33732df60e@isi.edu> <CACL_3VHmoCSo23OWqQFq7upw749CqMK7iazXrBKZARzwbzY5mw@mail.gmail.com> <f97f08d4-0070-437a-e22a-8782497c76eb@isi.edu> <4e36af95-84c3-bc7e-b18a-614f8bfab662@isi.edu> <58F48403.8080302@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <a0f656e8-e847-db54-6046-2078364d428b@isi.edu> <CALx6S36HYHdbGoJHNb+mVY6reu9RLikLxDJqrPgwO9tF1EfSgQ@mail.gmail.com> <8b1829ba-4e8d-5ee1-e24c-f42962f47dde@isi.edu> <CALx6S36=7KbTtv9QNUBTg6gPYQQighsPD_+mWNc=wUQTX70VBQ@mail.gmail.com> <8378ae17-c023-25a2-76e7-07b858916849@isi.edu>
Cc: "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, tsvwg <tsvwg@ietf.org>
From: Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>
Message-ID: <d5eac7d4-376f-612c-765c-043f10b21806@isi.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 14:19:28 -0700
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <8378ae17-c023-25a2-76e7-07b858916849@isi.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-MailScanner-ID: v3HLJSRm019702
X-ISI-4-69-MailScanner: Found to be clean
X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/HkkKBSK7q3kx_kzDXt56lrwD-0Q>
Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Regarding DTLS and UDP options
X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: Transport Area Working Group <tsvwg.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/tsvwg>, <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tsvwg/>
List-Post: <mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsvwg>, <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2017 21:20:11 -0000


On 4/17/2017 2:07 PM, Joe Touch wrote:
> I don't think we should be writing rules to indicate who should NOT be
> changing them, if we already have rules indicating the only parties that
> can. (granted, the requirement in 7 needs to be revised in 2119-speak).
FWIW, the doc currently says that the options are intended for use by
the endpoints.

However, just as NATs already change transport headers and options
(e.g., TCP), they could do so here as well.

In both cases, the same caveats apply:
    - if the endpoints don't want to allow changes, they must use (true)
transport or network protections
    - if the middlebox (or any other mechanism, e.g., offloading)
changes them, they need to know what they're doing and do it right

Again, none of this is news.

Joe