Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking
Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net> Mon, 11 November 2019 16:00 UTC
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To: Wesley Eddy <wes@mti-systems.com>, "Scharf, Michael" <Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de>
Cc: "Rodney W. Grimes" <4bone@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net>, "tsvwg@ietf.org" <tsvwg@ietf.org>, "tcpm@ietf.org" <tcpm@ietf.org>
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From: Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net>
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Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 16:00:28 +0000
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking
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Wes, Pls see the dictionary definitions of classic (as just posted in a response to Sebastian), which are all about superlative and enduring quality. I really don't think we will find a better word. I'm afraid what is 'normal' changes over time, which is to be avoided for an RFC. We deliberately chose 'Classic' because it had a sense of "The stuff that has stood the test of time up to publication of this RFC". If we use 'Normal' for the Reno-friendly service, it will always imply that L4S is not normal, even if L4S becomes normal (which is usually the intent of the IETF publishing an RFC). I have no desire to use a word that means 'inferior to L4S'. But I'm not happy to use a word that implies that L4S is abnormal. Sorry to make resolution of this one difficult (and BTW, thanks go to Michael Scharf for being clear on what he can compromise on). PS. I would like to hear whether anyone who has been either neutral or supportive of L4S perceives anything negative in the word 'Classic'. I suspect they have tuned out of this thread. Bob On 06/11/2019 19:54, Wesley Eddy wrote: > On 11/6/2019 1:57 PM, Scharf, Michael wrote: >> >> Bob, >> >> From draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-08: “It gives an incremental >> migration path so that existing 'Classic' TCP traffic will be no >> worse off” >> >> You are proposing an experiment. Not more than that. I will be fine >> with the term “Classic” for TCP and TCPM-specified congestion control >> when more than 50% of Internet traffic uses that new technology. >> >> Until this happens, I insist that the word “Classic” must be removed >> in all context of TCP and congestion control (as far as it is owned >> by TCPM), including the reference above. BTW, “normal” as suggested >> would also work for me. So, you have plenty of options for other terms. >> > > If Dave+Michael's suggestion of replacing "classic" with "normal" is > agreable to others, this seems like a good way forward to me. It > should be easy enough to explain in other SDOs that classic and normal > mean the same thing, if this is a real issue. > > (FWIW, I've never had a problem myself with "classic", nor read any > negative connotations to it. However, for the sake of working group > progress, I think we just need to pick something that seems the least > terrible and agree to move on.) > > -- ________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/
- [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Wesley Eddy
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Greg White
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Greg White
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Black, David
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Wesley Eddy
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Wesley Eddy
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Pete Heist
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Greg White
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Pete Heist
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Pete Heist
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Rodney W. Grimes
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Dave Taht
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Greg White
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Dave Taht
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Rodney W. Grimes
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Wesley Eddy
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs alex.burr@ealdwulf.org.uk
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Pete Heist
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Jonathan Morton
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Sebastian Moeller
- [tsvwg] fq_codel deployment size Dave Taht
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Pete Heist
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Tilmans, Olivier (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Black, David
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Pete Heist
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Tilmans, Olivier (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Tilmans, Olivier (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Tilmans, Olivier (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Tilmans, Olivier (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Dave Taht
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Bless, Roland (TM)
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Pete Heist
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Greg White
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Greg White
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Rodney W. Grimes
- Re: [tsvwg] L4S status: #17 Interaction w/ FQ AQMs Pete Heist
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking Sebastian Moeller