Re: [urn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc3406bis-urn-ns-reg-01.txt
Jonathan A Rees <rees@mumble.net> Tue, 10 January 2012 14:15 UTC
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From: Jonathan A Rees <rees@mumble.net>
To: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>
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Subject: Re: [urn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc3406bis-urn-ns-reg-01.txt
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On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 4:30 AM, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de> wrote: > On 2012-01-10 07:22, Juha Hakala wrote: > I still don't see what this has to do with "location" vs "naming". You can > start with a locator and overload it as a name, or you can start with a name > and overload it as locator. > > The former has been done a lot with HTTP URIs, the latter is what you seem > to try to do with URN resolution. > > In the end, where's the difference? As I see it the significant difference between urn: and http: is that the NID registry is administered by IETF through the RFC process, and establishes NIDs permanently, while the domain name registries (other than .arpa, .example, and .invalid) are administered by ICANN (with delegation to TLDs and so on), and seem to always involve the threats of expiration and steward corruption. If the NID namespace were embedded in .arpa we could have a full equivalence: urn:nid:path == http://nid.urn.arpa/path The latter could even be resolvable in the usual HTTP way, if someone were to set up a network of servers that did URN resolution via DNS and HTTP. (Obviously just best effort, as some legitimate URNs are going to be unresolvable.) > >> There has also been discussions about persistence (or the lack of it) of >> domain names, and the need of identifying abstract entities such as > > If you don't use domain names, you'll need an alternate system to delegate > responsibilities. Who's going to run it? Who's going to guarantee > persistence of *that* system`? I think persistence and resolvability can and should be decoupled, and treated as separate responsibilities. Persistence is relative and to some extent subjective. I would say that the RFC series is a pretty good bet for persistence, as are the non-DNS registries such as media type, link relation, message header, etc. So that is where I would set the bar - are the bindings of the URIs in question (whether URN or HTTP) as persistent as the binding of (say) media type name to media type? To answer the question of responsibility for persistence, URN persistence devolves to IETF, with the help of IANA, and with delegation to the NID authorities. Persistence of the NID registrations is enhanced by the existence of mirrors of the IETF RFC series. If you trust the NID authorities and their technical infrastructure and succession plans then URNs are as persistent as the RFC series. Whether you do trust them or not is sort of up to you. We don't have a persistence story like this for http: since domain name registration (outside of .arpa) seems to always be vulnerable to loss. No matter how much you trust an organization's ability to maintain the registration over decades, there will always be a nagging doubt, which is very annoying. I too find the "naming" vs. "location" dichotomy not very compelling, but I do find the renewal requirement vs. permanent NID registration to be hard to gloss over. For me, expiration and corruption risks are the real hole in the "Cool URIs" story. Resolvability via DNS is a different story from persistence, and indeed the business model for the party that would be responsible for resolution is not clear to me. IETF and IANA absorb the cost for other registries, but might balk at being asked to provide DNS support for something like .urn.arpa. This for me is the hole in the "resolvable persistent URI" idea. But I am not convinced yet that this is insurmountable. We do have other persistent registries, so the difficulty has to be one of scale, not of kind. >> works (which may or may not have manifestations in the Web). > > > "A 303 response to a GET request indicates that the requested resource does > not have a representation of its own that can be transferred by the server > over HTTP. The Location URI indicates a resource that is descriptive of the > target resource, such that the follow-on representation might be useful to > recipients without implying that it adequately represents the target > resource. Note that answers to the questions of what can be represented, > what representations are adequate, and what might be a useful description > are outside the scope of HTTP and thus entirely determined by the URI > owner(s)." -- > <http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-ietf-httpbis-p2-semantics-18.html#rfc.section.7.3.4> +1 Best Jonathan >> ... > > > Best regards, Julian > > _______________________________________________ > urn mailing list > urn@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/urn
- [urn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc3406bis-ur… internet-drafts
- Re: [urn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc3406bi… Alfred Hönes
- Re: [urn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc3406bi… Juha Hakala
- Re: [urn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc3406bi… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [urn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc3406bi… Juha Hakala
- Re: [urn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc3406bi… Julian Reschke
- Re: [urn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc3406bi… Juha Hakala
- Re: [urn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc3406bi… Julian Reschke
- Re: [urn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc3406bi… Juha Hakala
- Re: [urn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc3406bi… Julian Reschke
- Re: [urn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc3406bi… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [urn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc3406bi… Juha Hakala
- Re: [urn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc3406bi… Julian Reschke
- Re: [urn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc3406bi… Jonathan A Rees
- [urn] OT: urn:iana (was:Re: I-D Action: draft-iet… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [urn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc3406bi… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [urn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc3406bi… Svensson, Lars