Re: [xml2rfc] Insufficiency of txt format

John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> Mon, 01 February 2021 02:35 UTC

Return-Path: <johnl@iecc.com>
X-Original-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E6963A153D for <xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 18:35:14 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.451
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.451 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (2048-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=iecc.com header.b=LoNxlnCa; dkim=fail (2048-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=taugh.com header.b=v0AGaUat
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N3AcQsIJhSb8 for <xml2rfc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 18:35:11 -0800 (PST)
Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72DD73A153C for <xml2rfc@ietf.org>; Sun, 31 Jan 2021 18:35:11 -0800 (PST)
Received: (qmail 16361 invoked by uid 100); 1 Feb 2021 02:35:08 -0000
Date: 1 Feb 2021 02:35:08 -0000
Message-ID: <rv7pcs$fv0$1@gal.iecc.com>
From: "John Levine" <johnl@taugh.com>
To: xml2rfc@ietf.org
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:cleverness; s=3fe2.601768dc.k2101; i=news@user.iecc.com; bh=0Um+3rCcUAds7Fa09s+FJ6erPVbAtnspyteFb9or7Hs=; b=LoNxlnCarXGPvWws7KlqBevDziqB36U/sOJ9IIlts/gOxD8LV7Sg/6JoX74dyuvutFdjT0cs5CC8XfMfZaD4zJNRNUmPxSnUtzF+5r+L50J3U8H3gJHWiLaurreJ1ukGXF57VLVSQjJK5vWbzrdztlb1SOAJOzEHLqcxSEoFCWSxg54GWN3fxQskSL/noq7TbX71pN1NXltiyGp3pzOraUx33BWzFm5mmFJA4xlV7UVUCK79+BFEdGOx//oJYRXAsaE3aLFPcgdACVRH+wsdHWyVTSnwVqR/RlrECNvIlHv4XwxDdlSoW8tMt1A4BA8toxzSKE9HJJ1FsvPdqf9VmQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:cleverness; s=3fe2.601768dc.k2101; olt=news@user.iecc.com; bh=0Um+3rCcUAds7Fa09s+FJ6erPVbAtnspyteFb9or7Hs=; b=v0AGaUatG1p3O+IFzdIsw8IWzylUbZ2qDO5IvAXeA1/5qjBnsc3QzfLAJ8Ipv2z58sBYSmhEiSvkbRnvrJ5ICocn/VqnN8FUSTF1lt2SCKzmjAjPkM5tIWlhORCCq8sezh/s4neMLGPjxqo0B6ASSLvA12lq3QGp98Bp6ofjdaEx77JuBFaf/ZGJcxmFKMQMuOfCsTZntgrGYAIEHGIcjO3DG6Rg04y4DUDJeRNHllaDwqB1xh2ojjxVoxWXoceB8DHwpzurv5UKfIdhxR97aJh33tLTa8B8lbiLz/DKi2uF4zpHPYryoah894PcEL2/ML0XvVUYU2AmviWGjyTSSA==
Organization: Taughannock Networks
References: <20210130190821.7504E6D02AD4@ary.qy> <fcf04c37-7d63-337f-a434-92bb26aa27cd@alum.mit.edu>
In-Reply-To: <20210130190821.7504E6D02AD4@ary.qy> <fcf04c37-7d63-337f-a434-92bb26aa27cd@alum.mit.edu>
Cleverness: some
X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test77 (Sep 1, 2010)
Originator: johnl@iecc.com (John Levine)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/xml2rfc/qI4AItn6EAvJnJAtQt7_dMSiyW8>
Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Insufficiency of txt format
X-BeenThere: xml2rfc@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: <xml2rfc.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/xml2rfc>, <mailto:xml2rfc-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/xml2rfc/>
List-Post: <mailto:xml2rfc@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:xml2rfc-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc>, <mailto:xml2rfc-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2021 02:35:14 -0000

In article <fcf04c37-7d63-337f-a434-92bb26aa27cd@alum.mit.edu>du>,
Paul Kyzivat  <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>Of more concern, AFAIK the only reasonable diff tools work on the txt 
>version. IIRC there was once talk of creating a diff tool that worked on 
>the xml, but I haven't heard of any such thing materialized. 

Jim Schaad was working on it, but the stuff he wrote wasn't close to done.

>I think 
>that would present great challenges, especially if the xml is 
>aesthetically revised while preserving the look. And I would still want 
>to see the diff results in side-by-side form. Also that won't work when 
>one of the versions being diffed predates v3 xml.

I agree there's no plausible way to do XML diffs on documents using
different XML vocabularies, but eventually v2 will die out. Our
tooling is a problem and we underestimated what we'd need beyond
xml2rfc to create a productive v3 xml environment.

>The only way I have seen to reasonably manage differences in documents 
>with fancier formatting is with change history, such as provided by 
>MSWord. We clearly don't have that with v3 xml.

Well, we do if we store them in github but that's its own can of worms.

R's,
John
-- 
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly