Re: [arch-d] [IAB] I-D Action: draft-iab-protocol-maintenance-04.txt

"BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" <db3546@att.com> Mon, 11 November 2019 21:28 UTC

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From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" <db3546@att.com>
To: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "iab@iab.org" <iab@iab.org>, "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [IAB] [arch-d] I-D Action: draft-iab-protocol-maintenance-04.txt
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Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 21:28:20 +0000
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Subject: Re: [arch-d] [IAB] I-D Action: draft-iab-protocol-maintenance-04.txt
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Hi Ted,

With the upcoming meeting, I’ve been swamped with preps, hopefully during the meeting week, can find some time to talk as much easier than email.

I agree with what you have below as likely to be applicable for some protocols but I would be very uncomfortable to say it is universally applicable. In routing, we do many times generate responses for non-recognized requests but the response does not necessarily result in a fatal error. And for many “bits” e.g. flags, depending on the impact, routing may/may not have an error message, :
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mpls-lsp-ping-registries-update/

An example of where we were not “perfect” on first specifying (and assume tolerant receivers):
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-pce-stateful-flags/

Maybe I’m a bit more pessimistic than optimistic, I find it hard to parse that generating fatal errors will promote interoperability (if this is what is meant). I think one needs to allow for unexpected behavior and allow graceful failure. One can never be sure all the error cases/delay impacts have been sorted out, especially coming from outside of one’s domain/state machines/microservices. E.g. for a router, one needs first to ensure the integrity of the system is maintained and useful. One can have a beautiful architecture vs. deployment reality.

Carsten – a re-phrasing to clarify would be very helpful.

Cheers,
Deborah


From: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2019 5:26 PM
To: BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A <db3546@att.com>
Cc: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>om>; iab@iab.org; architecture-discuss@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [IAB] [arch-d] I-D Action: draft-iab-protocol-maintenance-04.txt

Hi Deborah,

On Wed, Nov 6, 2019 at 1:15 PM BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A <db3546@att.com<mailto:db3546@att.com>> wrote:


For me, the robustness principle has nothing to do with preventing new extensions on a protocol, it has everything to do with protecting existing deployments. The document's proposal "Choosing to generate fatal errors for unspecified conditions" may be appropriate for some protocols, it would cause a melt down of the network for other protocols. One of my working groups currently is doing a "fix" - and only because of the robustness principle, there have been no issues with current deployments.
As Carsten says downthread, some of the applications of the robustness principle are obviously good.  Some, not so much.  I think we all agree, though, that maintaining points of extension is both good and, ultimately, necessary if the Internet is going to continue to change and grow.  One issue is that some of the points of extension get eaten up by poor applications of the robustness principle.  If you reserve a code point but ignore its use in deployments because it has no meaning, it can really never have a meaning until a forklift upgrade arrives, as you can't tell which bits ignore it and which use it.  Given our current rate of ossification, that is a problem.

I don't know the situation you allude to above, and it may not apply there.  If you can send text on how to distinguish the situation you see and the doc describes, we'd be grateful.

regards,

Ted