Re: [Asrg] TitanKey and "white lies"... (Faking SMTP hard errors "improves" C/R utility?)

kent@songbird.com Sat, 31 May 2003 04:42 UTC

Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA11517 for <asrg-archive@odin.ietf.org>; Sat, 31 May 2003 00:42:07 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h4V4ffJ03547 for asrg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 31 May 2003 00:41:41 -0400
Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h4V4ffB03544 for <asrg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org>; Sat, 31 May 2003 00:41:41 -0400
Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA11513; Sat, 31 May 2003 00:41:37 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Ly9t-0004tV-00; Sat, 31 May 2003 00:39:57 -0400
Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Ly9t-0004tS-00; Sat, 31 May 2003 00:39:57 -0400
Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h4V4eBB03485; Sat, 31 May 2003 00:40:11 -0400
Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h4V4d7B03435 for <asrg@optimus.ietf.org>; Sat, 31 May 2003 00:39:07 -0400
Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA11324 for <asrg@ietf.org>; Sat, 31 May 2003 00:39:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: kent@songbird.com
Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Ly7P-0004pU-00 for asrg@ietf.org; Sat, 31 May 2003 00:37:23 -0400
Received: from adsl-67-116-36-254.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net ([67.116.36.254] helo=localhost.localdomain) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Ly7O-0004p3-00 for asrg@ietf.org; Sat, 31 May 2003 00:37:23 -0400
Received: (from kent@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h4V4c1O13250 for asrg@ietf.org; Fri, 30 May 2003 21:38:01 -0700
To: asrg@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Asrg] TitanKey and "white lies"... (Faking SMTP hard errors "improves" C/R utility?)
Message-ID: <20030531043801.GB24759@owl.songbird.com>
References: <16087.57686.392469.463760@world.std.com> <200305302330.h4UNUTLl006663@calcite.rhyolite.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <200305302330.h4UNUTLl006663@calcite.rhyolite.com>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i
Sender: asrg-admin@ietf.org
Errors-To: asrg-admin@ietf.org
X-BeenThere: asrg@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12
Precedence: bulk
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/asrg>, <mailto:asrg-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Id: Anti-Spam Research Group - IRTF <asrg.ietf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:asrg@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:asrg-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/asrg>, <mailto:asrg-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
List-Archive: <https://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/asrg/>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 21:38:01 -0700

On Fri, May 30, 2003 at 05:30:29PM -0600, Vernon Schryver wrote:
[...]

> Say that you did find that 87.345% (or whatever) of all spammers today
> respond to 550's.  Instead of sarcasm, please say what you would
> conclude about next month.  How much money would you bet on your answer?

The thread of this discussion, I believe, went as follows: 1) someone
made a claim that most spammers observe 550's and remove the
corresponding addresses from their lists.  2) various people then
responded that in their opinion many/most spammers ignore 550s.  3) if I
understand correctly, you claim that spammers' behavior can't be
presumed to follow any particular rules. 

It seems to me that 3 is completely consistent with 2, and in fact,
almost implies it, and that they both contradict 1: That is, if we
accept your premise that spammers won't follow predictable rules, then
it follows that a substantial percentage of them won't pay attention to
550 responses (otherwise they would be predictabled), and therefore,
point 1 is false. 

The fundamental point is that we can't count on spammers honoring 550s.  

Kent

-- 
Kent Crispin                               "Be good, and you will be
Manager of Technical Operations, ICANN      lonesome."
crispin@icann.org,kent@songbird.com                    -- Mark Twain
               p: +1 310 823 9358  f: +1 310 823 8649
_______________________________________________
Asrg mailing list
Asrg@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/asrg