Re: [AVTCORE] draft-ietf-avtcore-multi-party-rtt-mix Issue 1: transport

Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> Mon, 18 May 2020 19:20 UTC

Return-Path: <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E3B13A03FF for <avt@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 18 May 2020 12:20:51 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.202
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qxdc6Zfo0Vgh for <avt@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 18 May 2020 12:20:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from EUR04-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr80051.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.8.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2BC73A081F for <avt@ietf.org>; Mon, 18 May 2020 12:20:48 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=mrIa0FYj84wJS79StmIf1jn7wJ2h2tkFIj4CVRQ9jdjgkNzXSu+03Xz2CNvoWbJobvVNJ9gm2941qXQbKiFfl94bQzkJjQY8TNwHwMpDRSqFBphkb0XNML/3MpS2xATnjYvw2vfElt6uhMnNnI7it0tmH9YQ8QjbvDQDmiLrte2PHkr27F7Up6OjrprBJxie8QKis71wCJyG1279aP5jsyfIpxDQ8Fbhp/Vu8HPYqf1P7R/brCJYgtVXlNdiRe5/NKIWpoD2FkjK8ODQ27X9T+RhI8U6CKF7ikgVPSxdXR1FwPRyxJvgdP0odXZ514RLpqqF+8ODhiLvbl/UmavRoA==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=0Wd5u6HSGdhMFGQ7ZucqRSoJl78CKlgqLyCjwSCb55U=; b=E+RQer0HLPQa08vDtfoMAuV4bF4tICrCPudFlxUO8RKKP9qWpxUOepfcf8ny9pp3UVXFUciJSMIBszL2ManfyjE45TdFP5tfeSQgcclE3ngKAVgxFaZxI2ihVQOZY6LTBqZn6RMtkcBNnxkZMoe5Uv1Aoi7/xFQ6PmfAJzVdPm4R0Xuk6fOUbZWu0nbjvfR9e9a54nRiLNvfD0F7qCq+m/VODkZRCKWh3Wdhy1r0CmazGQEmrZGZDgRgPAviohJAUamUHCleIZzGIVjYfXCn+MGI7Rs+CA27KTs8bwUkyGHM3wYa8BhlAWJip0ddIGY8pNSJvDnVGPPtJAtxv48ihg==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=ericsson.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=ericsson.com; dkim=pass header.d=ericsson.com; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ericsson.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=0Wd5u6HSGdhMFGQ7ZucqRSoJl78CKlgqLyCjwSCb55U=; b=ZffYNDFrz5gfVwx9SQuIuOyXQ7PfaR2YARI2N9Ow4o2o+Uu2l1NZpoNhy93mccDRiPd0OCyPRdy9GggKqafrA6lpjsbFBgFre2UBdk0lLoLpEJHUKi6na7NEYcalYKI69w7JmLAS2yZ17/dM8upv+ebbyB09zXRwatVU9ZEuZOk=
Received: from AM7PR07MB7012.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:1bc::19) by AM7PR07MB6328.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:135::9) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3021.13; Mon, 18 May 2020 19:20:46 +0000
Received: from AM7PR07MB7012.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::7529:b51f:5fb4:62b9]) by AM7PR07MB7012.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::7529:b51f:5fb4:62b9%5]) with mapi id 15.20.3021.019; Mon, 18 May 2020 19:20:46 +0000
From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: =?utf-8?B?R3VubmFyIEhlbGxzdHLDtm0=?= <gunnar.hellstrom@ghaccess.se>, "avt@ietf.org" <avt@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [AVTCORE] draft-ietf-avtcore-multi-party-rtt-mix Issue 1: transport
Thread-Index: AQHWKgCsA9D5GcGQLUuZPTZ9sXdX2KipQAGAgAA5aICAADOUgIABHyYAgAA7QwCAAvEpAIAABFwAgAAC5QCAADlegP///lWAgAA5oAA=
Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 19:20:46 +0000
Message-ID: <9C447F11-78AB-4A8B-9B53-DADA49032059@ericsson.com>
References: <46CB285F-C49A-4910-B9B1-667AB1AE4538@brianrosen.net> <DC445046-4F9A-48AA-9192-6430B6FBEF4C@gmail.com> <0112D996-221B-4B2F-9647-A6CCBF0F3B4C@brianrosen.net> <77C1CD99-247A-4B3C-B164-DB6BA040C615@ericsson.com> <7207a58f-85d3-6e27-af0a-06f51444768a@ghaccess.se>
In-Reply-To: <7207a58f-85d3-6e27-af0a-06f51444768a@ghaccess.se>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-GB
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.36.20041300
authentication-results: ghaccess.se; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ghaccess.se; dmarc=none action=none header.from=ericsson.com;
x-originating-ip: [188.127.223.154]
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: b15f618f-f816-4eff-4fa8-08d7fb60911b
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM7PR07MB6328:
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <AM7PR07MB6328A0E776BED3A12710659293B80@AM7PR07MB6328.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508;
x-forefront-prvs: 04073E895A
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: wmgXy8k7zHfEnSIh+J0o1XYqICIJUUCzOIxnKf0fI4nFhakOzAdUCB5HJOI5a4InPCI/rPQxL324MvVT06nOVNBIXSM3KjhhE0nB9Id1viFnco7MAcolyjLe1fSc4LdwycHa5uWx3Ph1aoe70W0gzMZD/sC3V3d8hVD4L/rKKXbpJFZsHS2n+LgBW8/dCQ2Obcxhrwhf5k/FmDobsf4IjYcNadIkbgX2lU5aPjD9L0+6l21dgjqsWjUkAdZ66du/AnoEzP9h8/PiE9dXE0AuSyj6nvPxQ1qdjfRZ118wXmpwEvIFVXnf5cwphK959yNn
x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:AM7PR07MB7012.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFTY:; SFS:(4636009)(346002)(376002)(366004)(39860400002)(396003)(136003)(91956017)(71200400001)(186003)(26005)(2616005)(44832011)(33656002)(316002)(6486002)(110136005)(5660300002)(66946007)(2906002)(478600001)(36756003)(66446008)(64756008)(66556008)(6512007)(66476007)(76116006)(86362001)(6506007)(8936002)(8676002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101;
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: 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
x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-ID: <1C8923C084CAD541A176C287FBBA974E@eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b15f618f-f816-4eff-4fa8-08d7fb60911b
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 May 2020 19:20:46.5455 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: /m5SvQUed+jhnytRZCthe5eActju6CSZg23zFsb5ieOpvItRdLAafxfLgRvMjnO6ISFTGWQDUrO8qY84x17peqnX0+VdC2J6D3TpmG61qnk=
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM7PR07MB6328
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/YegxVESOhJrcv5keWhCKR5bsN5k>
Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] draft-ietf-avtcore-multi-party-rtt-mix Issue 1: transport
X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance <avt.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/avt>, <mailto:avt-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/avt/>
List-Post: <mailto:avt@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:avt-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt>, <mailto:avt-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 May 2020 19:20:51 -0000

Hi,

    >>> I think this means we use the WebRTC data channel, which is HTTP based, right?  Totally bypasses the SBC.  Have to be careful
    >>> to not cause the SBC to get confused with the SDP.
    >> The WebRTC data channel is not HTTP based. It is basically an SCTP stream.
    >
    > Yes, with UDP as the lowest layer.
    >
    > So we are talking about two UDP based transports.
    >
    > text/red and text/rex are RTP based, and may be SRTP encrypted. They are 
    > declared in the same m-line, and one selected and then will use one or 
    > two ports.
    >
    > WebRTC data channels stack is UDP/DTLS/SCTP.
    >
    > Both would normally use ICE to find their ways through networks.
    >
    > Do we really have noticable differences in how hard it would be to get 
    > through the networks with any of these? And would there be any other 
    > transport that would be easier to get through?

    I really think we should aim for an RTP based solution. 4103 is already out there, and possible extensions are much easier to adopt than something completely new.

    In addition, we can for sure also define a WebRTC based solution, but that should not be the only solution.

    Regards,

    Christer