Re: [codec] comparitive quality testing
Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> Fri, 15 April 2011 17:01 UTC
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Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 13:01:04 -0400
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From: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>
To: David Virette <david.virette@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [codec] comparitive quality testing
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David, We should compare with standard G.729 (not A or B) at 8 kbit/s, 0 and 5% packet loss, clean speech and speech mixed with at least one noise sample. We can use ITU-T audio library for both speech and noise samples. _____________ Roman Shpount On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 10:46 AM, David Virette <david.virette@huawei.com>wrote: > Dear Roman, > > Would you have some specific conditions you would like to see tested for > G.729: clean speech and/or noisy speech experiments, error conditions, > levels? It is just to have an idea of what has to be added/modified in the > test plan. > > Best regards, > > David > > > > David Virette > HUAWEI TECHNOLOGIES CO.,LTD. [image: huawei_logo] > > > > Building C > Riesstrasse 25 > 80992 Munich, Germany > Tel: +49 89 158834 4148 > Fax: +49 89 158834 4447 > Mobile: +49 1622047469 > E-mail: david.virette@huawei.com > www.huawei.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential information from > HUAWEI, which > is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed above. > Any use of the > information contained herein in any way (including, but not limited to, > total or partial > disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the > intended > recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please > notify the sender by > phone or email immediately and delete it! > > *From:* codec-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:codec-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf > Of *Roman Shpount > *Sent:* jeudi 14 avril 2011 20:21 > *To:* Gregory Maxwell > *Cc:* codec@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [codec] comparitive quality testing > > > > I think part of the confusion comes from the fact that there are two > purposes for the comparative testing. One is to validate that the codec > meets the WG requirements. Another is to show how new codec compares to the > industry dominant codecs. For me, the second goal is more important then the > first one. I think if we care about the adoption of Opus, we should consider > making the comparative test results a deliverable for the working group. It > is very hard for a real company in the open market to justify doing > something, like adapting a new codec without a compelling reason. Knowing > how this codec compares to other existing codecs is a big part of providing > such a reason. If we look at the tests from this point of view, we need to > see how Opus compares to G.729 and AMR in narrow band, and AMR-WB and G.722 > in wideband, Since there are no existing deployments of a meaningful size > (apart from a closed proprietary systems, like Skype) for UWB and FB, we can > compare Opus with industry leaders, such as G.719. > > One can argue that we should also compare Opus with patent free codecs, > which adds iLBC and Speex to the list, but I personally see this as less of > a requirement. iLBC never managed to get market traction outside of the open > source world, and even in the open source world nobody bothered to write > even moderately optimized version of it. Speex is known for audio quality > problems so that it would be an easy target to beat. On the other hand this > would probably not be much of a milestone and will not tell anybody a lot > about the Opus quality. > > There were several tests that compared Opus with non-interactive codecs, > but once again this is not something which would affect choosing Opus vs > other codecs, since other codecs are clearly inappropriate for Opus > purposes. > > We can argue about adding more codecs to the list, but I am not sure this > will make the difference. We only need to compare with a very few to give > everybody a clear idea about the Opus quality. As far as defining the > criteria for the codec being acceptable for standardization, all we really > need is a comparable quality (not worse then the other codecs by some > defined margin). This is not a competition where Opus needs to win every > race to be successful. > > The whole reason why I am interested in formal comparative testing of Opus > is because I am impressed by its quality. I think having well documented > test results which were cross-checked by multiple people might make a > critical difference in Opus adoption, and as a result the success of this > working group. > > No hats, just my two cents... > _____________ > Roman Shpount > > On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@juniper.net> > wrote: > > Roni Even [ron.even.tlv@gmail.com] wrote: > > I do not mind if the WG will decide to remove the quality claim and > continue > > with developing a royalty free codec with "good enough" quality not > saying > > it is better than other codecs. > > I just think that it should be clear from the charter and requirements > what > > is the purpose of the work. > > It's funny how we can argue and argue, only to later realize that it comes > down to a simple mutual misunderstanding. > > I thought everyone was already on the same page with respect to the > goals: it's good to be as good as possible, but the chartered purpose > of the WG was only to do a "good quality" codec that was suited > to the listed applications and deployments. > > As a developer I know that quality testing is important, and of course > we've done a lot of it of various types. I strongly believe in scientific > testing, so of course my first instinct would have been to do it here, > but perhaps the reality of the consensus process makes that less > reasonable—as others have pointed out, most other WGs don't really > do anything comparable to quality testing. > > Likewise, making sure the outcome is as legally unencumbered as I can > is also very important to me, but because of the vulgarities of the > process and the law, this isn't something that the working group itself > makes promises about. > > So, perhaps it makes sense for the working group to not make any quality > promises in the same way it makes no promises about patents. > > It seems clear enough to me now that we can much more easily come to > consensus about achieving good-enough status than about formal testing > gates and requirements. > > We should accept your suggestion—drop all the comparative quality > requirements from the requirements draft, and stop discussing comparative > quality here—and then make some progress on technology, rather than > continue bickering about details where we are not going to come to > consensus. > > The market can figure out the comparative quality question on its own. > > _______________________________________________ > codec mailing list > codec@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/codec > > >
- [codec] comparitive quality testing Gregory Maxwell
- Re: [codec] comparitive quality testing Roman Shpount
- Re: [codec] comparitive quality testing Cullen Jennings
- Re: [codec] comparitive quality testing Roman Shpount
- Re: [codec] comparitive quality testing David Virette
- Re: [codec] comparitive quality testing Roman Shpount
- Re: [codec] comparitive quality testing Steve Underwood
- Re: [codec] comparitive quality testing Roman Shpount
- Re: [codec] comparitive quality testing Cullen Jennings
- Re: [codec] comparitive quality testing Alan Duric
- Re: [codec] comparitive quality testing Anisse Taleb
- Re: [codec] comparitive quality testing Monty Montgomery
- Re: [codec] comparitive quality testing Roman Shpount
- Re: [codec] comparitive quality testing Stephan Wenger
- Re: [codec] comparitive quality testing Steve Underwood
- Re: [codec] comparitive quality testing Roman Shpount
- Re: [codec] comparitive quality testing Roman Shpount
- Re: [codec] comparitive quality testing Cullen Jennings
- Re: [codec] comparitive quality testing Alan Duric
- Re: [codec] comparitive quality testing Roman Shpount
- Re: [codec] comparitive quality testing Roman Shpount
- [codec] iLBC deployment statistics (Re: compariti… Harald Alvestrand
- [codec] Deployment of iLBC Re: comparitive qualit… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [codec] comparitive quality testing: vote to … Jean-Francois Mule
- Re: [codec] comparitive quality testing: vote to … Roman Shpount