Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model?
"Peter Jones (petejone)" <petejone@cisco.com> Thu, 27 November 2014 01:20 UTC
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From: "Peter Jones (petejone)" <petejone@cisco.com>
To: Philippe Klein <philippe@broadcom.com>, "Norman Finn (nfinn)" <nfinn@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [Detnet] L2/L3 model?
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Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2014 01:20:53 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model?
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I think that Norm's summary is concise and clear. The internal structure of the "central controller to meet the L2/L3 problem" (unified database/computation, separated L3 and N instances of L2 database/computation) is less important right now than understanding what it needs to get done. The scale question ("Scaling this up to a network larger than a single controller can practically serve, or across authority boundaries, is a non-trivial problem. We’ll have to decide whether and/or when to tackle it.") I agree is challenging, but I don’t see any way of avoiding it long term. I think getting a good handle on the (somewhat simpler) case of a single controller is where to start, but I feel an "NNI" (controller to controller, AS to AS, etc) signaling and data interface coming in the future. Regards Peter _______________________________________________ Peter Jones Cisco Systems Principal Engineer 3600 Cisco Way ENG Switching Software San Jose, CA, 95134 USA Tel: +1 408 525 6952 Fax: +1 408 527 4698 Email: petejone at cisco.com Twitter: @petergjones _______________________________________________ -----Original Message----- From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Philippe Klein Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2014 11:42 PM To: Norman Finn (nfinn) Cc: detnet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model? Thank you Norm. We are in synch and I apologize if my mail was not clear enough /Ph -----Original Message----- From: Norman Finn (nfinn) [mailto:nfinn@cisco.com] Sent: Friday, November 21, 2014 11:31 PM To: Philippe Klein Cc: detnet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model? Philippe, After speaking with you on the weekly TSN call, I think we’re mostly in sync, now. Testing that thought ... - Neither you nor I (and, I hope, no one else) is asking routers to know their adjacent L2 networks’ topologies, or for bridges to know their attached L3 topologies. - For a central controller to meet the L2/L3 problem posed in the current problem statement draft, it would need to know both the logical (L2/L3) topology (topologies) and the physical topology of the networks over which it is creating paths and assigning resources. - Scaling this up to a network larger than a single controller can practically serve, or across authority boundaries, is a non-trivial problem. We’ll have to decide whether and/or when to tackle it. — Norm -----Original Message----- From: Philippe Klein <philippe@broadcom.com> Date: Monday, November 17, 2014 at 22:41 PM To: Pascal Thubert <pthubert@cisco.com> Cc: Erik Nordmark <nordmark@acm.org>, "detnet@ietf.org" <detnet@ietf.org>, "Anca Zamfir (ancaz)" <ancaz@cisco.com> Subject: Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model? >In my view the PCE will be both a L3 and L2 PCE but L3 will get >services from L2 to establish a path based on the circuit constraints. >They could be many L2 parameters that do not need to be exposed to L3 >and and in my view this L2/L3 interface is the key but against this is >my humble view and we are at the start of this discussion with wise open minds. >Trying to blend the L2/L3 in a single path computation might be very >difficult. Having said that the L3 and L2 topology DB could be unified > >Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 18, 2014, at 8:28, "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" >><pthubert@cisco.com> wrote: >> >> I do not think so Philippe. >> >> I do not see the PCE talking only to L3 devices and let the L3 >>devices set up a path through a UNI interface. The PCE needs to know >>the capabilities and topology of all the hops, so as to guarantee an >>optimized path. >> Whether a hop is L2 or L3 is actually a secondary artifact from that >>perspective; and in practice, I expect that the L3 TSN switching will >>often be L2.5, MPLS or TSCH. >> From the detnet and the 6TiSHC meetings, I gathered that: >> - the IETF is forming a TEAS WG that would define a Yang data model >>for topologies. We could probably extend that. >> - we could extend PCEP to configure and maintain the paths and >>related state info if we use the model whereby the PCE talks >>individually to the intermediate nodes >> - OTOH, if we decide to set up the path hop-by-hop using a >>source-route indication computed by the PCE, then CCAMP may become >>useful, to be monitorind for new work just being started. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Pascal >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: detnet [mailto:detnet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Philippe >>>Klein >>> Sent: mardi 18 novembre 2014 07:15 >>> To: Anca Zamfir (ancaz); Erik Nordmark >>> Cc: detnet@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model? >>> >>> Ana, >>> Thank you for your question. >>> In my humble view I am not sure we must create a single >>>heterogeneous view of the network. It seems to me that we must keep >>>both topology separated and let the L3 ask the L2 to create a path >>>with the given QoS (delay, jitter, bw...AND REDUNDACY if needed) >>>constrains. >>> >>> /Philippe >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Anca Zamfir (ancaz) [mailto:ancaz@cisco.com] >>> Sent: Monday, November 17, 2014 9:32 PM >>> To: Philippe Klein; Erik Nordmark >>> Cc: detnet@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model? >>> >>> Hi Philippe, >>> My understanding is that QoS (delay, jitter, b/w, etc) must be >>>guaranteed for the end-to-end path, whether the path spans L3 only, >>>L2 only or a mixture. >>>One >>> solution would be for PCE to get the L2 and L3 island topologies >>>(yes, make PCE work at L2 with SPB + extensions which is new) and >>>create a single heterogeneous view of the network. Once the path is >>>computed, PCE can determine how the different segments (could be TE >>>LSPs in L3 or multicast groups for L2) should be created. I think >>>PW-s (if >>> used) would be carried inside these segments and it would be good to >>>only expose the label at the termination point (listener or the node >>>that eliminates the duplicates). This is to avoid having to do >>>stitching. >>> There are other possibilities to explore, with some (like where L2 >>>and >>>L3 islands >>> independently establish these paths) I am struggling with the >>>end-to-end guarantee. >>> >>> thanks >>> -ana >>> >>>> On 11/17/14 8:02 PM, "Philippe Klein" <philippe@broadcom.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Erik, >>>> In my humble view, the L3 must only indicate the L3 router path >>>>over of the L2 island with its path attributes and let the L2 >>>>protocol select the constrained path. >>>> Essentially the inner L2 topology could be ignored by the L3. >>>> >>>> /Philippe >>>> Broadcom >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Nov 17, 2014, at 20:11, "Erik Nordmark" <nordmark@acm.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> After the BoF I realized there was one thing we didn't talk about >>>>>which is what combined L2 and L3 topologies that folks have in mind. >>>>> It is true that from a packet forwarding perspective both L2 and >>>>>L3 have queues and clocks, but the interaction with the control >>>>>plane and the approach might be different for different forms of >>>>>combinations. >>>>> >>>>> First of all we have 6TISCH which is an L3-only network. >>>>> >>>>> But in combined L2/L3 networks we could have at least >>>>> - interconnecting L2 islands using L3 >>>>> - arbitrary topologies with mixtures of L2 and L3 forwarding >>>>> devices >>>>> >>>>> A suggestion (at the mike during the BoF) was to consider >>>>>pseudo-wires. >>>>> That might make sense when interconnecting L2 islands. >>>>> But with arbitrary topologies one could end with with a path that >>>>>as a mixture of bridges and routers e.g. >>>>> >>>>> Sender - B1 - B2 - R1 - B3 - B4 - B5 - R2 - R3 - Listener >>>>> >>>>> Are there use cases that result in such topologies/paths? >>>>> >>>>> Would one need one controller which is aware of both the L2 and L3 >>>>> devices and can pick paths (with resources) that include both? >>>>> (Typically we separate the layers thus we might have a PCE which >>>>> sees the L3 topology but not the L2 devices in between the >>>>> routers.) >>>>> >>>>> I think it would be good to explore the combined L2/L3 use cases >>>>> and models in more detail. >>>>> >>>>> Erik >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> detnet mailing list >>>>> detnet@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> detnet mailing list >>>> detnet@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> detnet mailing list >>> detnet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet > >_______________________________________________ >detnet mailing list >detnet@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet _______________________________________________ detnet mailing list detnet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet
- [Detnet] L2/L3 model? Erik Nordmark
- Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model? Philippe Klein
- Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model? Pat Thaler
- Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model? Anca Zamfir (ancaz)
- Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model? Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model? Jouni Korhonen
- Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model? Philippe Klein
- Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model? Philippe Klein
- Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model? Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model? Philippe Klein
- Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model? Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model? Vengada Prasad Govindan (venggovi)
- Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model? Anca Zamfir (ancaz)
- Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model? Philippe Klein
- Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model? Anca Zamfir (ancaz)
- Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model? Shitanshu Shah (svshah)
- Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model? Erik Nordmark
- Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model? Norman Finn (nfinn)
- Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model? Norman Finn (nfinn)
- Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model? Norman Finn (nfinn)
- Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model? Philippe Klein
- Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model? Peter Jones (petejone)
- Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model? Philippe Klein
- Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model? Xialiang (Frank)
- Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model? Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Detnet] L2/L3 model? Norman Finn (nfinn)