Re: [dispatch] War of the Worlds (was Re: I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-sip-egress-route-00)
Hadriel Kaplan <HKaplan@acmepacket.com> Wed, 24 March 2010 08:13 UTC
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From: Hadriel Kaplan <HKaplan@acmepacket.com>
To: Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com>, Dean Willis <dean.willis@softarmor.com>, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 04:12:30 -0400
Thread-Topic: [dispatch] War of the Worlds (was Re: I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-sip-egress-route-00)
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] War of the Worlds (was Re: I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-sip-egress-route-00)
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Not to argue your general tone, but you do realize that most of those things you list were actually generally profitable and successful in their time, right? Sure their time may be past, but that doesn't mean they were failures. I mean I used to be in the IP routing world before coming to voip, and SONET was the predominant long-haul transport which actually connected and formed the "Internet" in the 90's and early 2000's. I dunno what it is mostly today, but I bet there's still tons of it out there. And it's not like there weren't plenty of ultimate-failure companies building Ethernet switches or IP routers as well. Or even HTTP browsers. -hadriel p.s. and sadly H.323 ain't dead yet either - for some reason it seems to be alive and kicking in certain regions of the World, and in certain niche market segments. ________________________________ From: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henry Sinnreich Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 12:19 AM To: Dean Willis; Adam Roach Cc: dispatch@ietf.org; Daryl Malas Subject: Re: [dispatch] War of the Worlds (was Re: I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-sip-egress-route-00) This really sums up the enigma why the IETF should do work that contradicts every principle of the Internet architecture and its engineering. It may be useful to remember the _solid_ track record of the "stagnant world" * OSI * X4.00 mail * IN * AIN * ISDN * SONET/SDH * ATM * BISDN * H.323 * current re-incarnations such as PSTN/SIP and other (avoiding flames here)... How many companies have disappeared building this stuff? Layoffs. Capital destruction. The other enigma is the tolerance to associate the IETF with the reincarnations of these failures. >I have long speculated that perhaps the best thing we can do is punt the "stagnant world" stuff to a different forum. >I seem to recall many times suggesting that SIP should just be moved to the ITU so we can get on with building the Internet. >I'd happily add ENUM to the same bucket. Well said. Thanks, Henry On 3/16/10 5:49 PM, "Dean Willis" <dean.willis@softarmor.com> wrote: On Mar 16, 2010, at 6:24 PM, Adam Roach wrote: I disagree profoundly with characterizing Rosenberg's Modest Proposal as an appropriate summary of the issues, as it gets the analysis precisely wrong. It proposes completely abandoning the vibrant world as a lost cause, and embracing the stagnant world as the only path forward. This isn't just allowing collateral damage to the vibrant world for the sake of expediency in stagnant world solutions -- it's a suggestion that we nuke the vibrant world so it doesn't keep annoying people trying to develop stagnant solutions. I have long speculated that perhaps the best thing we can do is punt the "stagnant world" stuff to a different forum. I seem to recall many times suggesting that SIP should just be moved to the ITU so we can get on with building the Internet. I'd happily add ENUM to the same bucket. The problem is that we might wake up one day and realize that the Internet has been turned off, and all we have left is a stagnant backwater of telecommunications boundaries established by fat-and-happy politicos eager to preserve their own domains. The alternative, perhaps, is to embrace stagnation. Then add chlorine. -- Dean ________________________________ _______________________________________________ dispatch mailing list dispatch@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
- [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-sip-e… Daryl Malas
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Dean Willis
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… PFAUTZ, PENN L (ATTCORP)
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Adam Roach
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Adam Roach
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Dean Willis
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Dean Willis
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Greger Viken Teigre
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Daryl Malas
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Daryl Malas
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Daryl Malas
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Adam Roach
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Daryl Malas
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Daryl Malas
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… PFAUTZ, PENN L (ATTCORP)
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Daryl Malas
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… PFAUTZ, PENN L (ATTCORP)
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Dean Willis
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Dean Willis
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… PFAUTZ, PENN L (ATTCORP)
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Adam Roach
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… David Schwartz
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Daryl Malas
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Richard Shockey
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Cartwright, Kenneth
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Dean Willis
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Daryl Malas
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Dwight, Timothy M (Tim)
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Dwight, Timothy M (Tim)
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Daryl Malas
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Dean Willis
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Dean Willis
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Adam Uzelac
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Otmar Lendl
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Lawrence Conroy
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Dean Willis
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Dean Willis
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Otmar Lendl
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Daryl Malas
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Daryl Malas
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Dean Willis
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Dean Willis
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Greger Viken Teigre
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Adam Roach
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Adam Roach
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Adam Roach
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Dean Willis
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Dean Willis
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Daryl Malas
- [dispatch] War of the Worlds (was Re: I-D Action:… Adam Roach
- Re: [dispatch] War of the Worlds (was Re: I-D Act… Dean Willis
- Re: [dispatch] War of the Worlds (was Re: I-D Act… Adam Roach
- Re: [dispatch] War of the Worlds (was Re: I-D Act… Peterson, Jon
- Re: [dispatch] War of the Worlds (was Re: I-D Act… Daryl Malas
- Re: [dispatch] War of the Worlds (was Re: I-D Act… Daryl Malas
- Re: [dispatch] War of the Worlds (was Re: I-D Act… Adam Roach
- Re: [dispatch] War of the Worlds (was Re: I-D Act… Henry Sinnreich
- Re: [dispatch] War of the Worlds (was Re: I-D Act… Dean Willis
- Re: [dispatch] War of the Worlds (was Re: I-D Act… Dean Willis
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Greger Viken Teigre
- Re: [dispatch] War of the Worlds (was Re: I-D Act… Greger Viken Teigre
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Richard Shockey
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Adam Roach
- Re: [dispatch] War of the Worlds (was Re: I-D Act… Daryl Malas
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [dispatch] War of the Worlds (was Re: I-D Act… Otmar Lendl
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [dispatch] War of the Worlds (was Re: I-D Act… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Adam Uzelac
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Adam Roach
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Dean Willis
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-malas-dispatch-s… Paul Kyzivat