Re: [Emu] review of draft-ietf-emu-eaptunnel-req-04

Hi Dan,

The document currently states anonymous cipher suites MUST NOT be
mandatory to implement for the tunnel method.  I think the is the
appropriate stance for the document to take for the base tunnel method.
I also do not think this prevents a follow-on specification defining how
to use anonymous tunnel securely.

Cheers,

Joe

> -----Original Message-----
> From: emu-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:emu-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Dan
> Harkins
> Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 3:30 PM
> To: Hoeper Katrin-QWKN37
> Cc: emu@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Emu] review of draft-ietf-emu-eaptunnel-req-04
> 
> 
>   Hi Katrin,
> 
>   Yes, EAP-pwd uses the password for mutual authentication. If the
> server doesn't know the password the exchange will fail. The key
> differentiator (from, say, EAP-GPSK) is that it uses a zero knowledge
> proof and is resistant to off-line dictionary attack.
> 
>   Dan.
> 
> On Wed, March 3, 2010 2:33 pm, Hoeper Katrin-QWKN37 wrote:
> > Sorry Dan,
> >
> > Is EAP-pwd using the password for mutual authentication?
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: emu-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:emu-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
Of
> >> Hoeper Katrin-QWKN37
> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 4:28 PM
> >> To: Dan Harkins
> >> Cc: emu@ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Emu] review of draft-ietf-emu-eaptunnel-req-04
> >>
> >> How does that authenticate the server if a user enters a password?
> >>
> >> If the server says, yes that was the right password?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@lounge.org]
> >> > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 4:14 PM
> >> > To: Hoeper Katrin-QWKN37
> >> > Cc: Dan Harkins; Joseph Salowey; emu@ietf.org
> >> > Subject: RE: [Emu] review of draft-ietf-emu-eaptunnel-req-04
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >   Since they both use the same low-entropy password to perform
their
> >> > mutual authentication it is not, strictly speaking, just the
peer's
> >> > credential.
> >> >
> >> >   Dan.
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, March 3, 2010 1:45 pm, Hoeper Katrin-QWKN37 wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > See inline.
> >> > >> -----Original Message-----
> >> > >> From: Dan Harkins [mailto:dharkins@lounge.org]
> >> > >> Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 3:39 PM
> >> > >> To: Hoeper Katrin-QWKN37
> >> > >> Cc: Dan Harkins; Joseph Salowey; emu@ietf.org
> >> > >> Subject: RE: [Emu] review of draft-ietf-emu-eaptunnel-req-04
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>   Hi Katrin,
> >> > >>
> >> > >> On Wed, March 3, 2010 12:31 pm, Hoeper Katrin-QWKN37 wrote:
> >> > >> > Dan,
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > OK, I understand that the tunnel provides all these other
> > feats.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > But why can't the server authenticate during the tunnel
> > protocol?
> >> I
> >> > >> > still don't understand the use case for mutually anonymous
> >> tunnels.
> >> > >>
> >> > >>   Because it doesn't have the right credential.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> > If the server has a certificate why can't it send it to the
> > peer
> >> > > before
> >> > >> > or during the tunnel establishment?
> >> > >>
> >> > >>   If the server has a certificate then sending it to the peer
> >> > >> would not really solve any problem. The peer would still need
to
> >> > >> have a reason to trust it and we're back to the problem of
> > putting
> >> > >> a trusted certificate in some certificate store. A global PKI
to
> >> > >> solve all of our certificate issues still has not
materialized.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> > If the peer and server share a secret, than this could be
used
> > to
> >> > >> > establish the tunnel.
> >> > >>
> >> > >>   If the peer and server share a secret they could use one of
the
> >> PSK
> >> > >> ciphersuites for TLS but those are susceptible to a dictionary
> >> attack
> >> > >> and are therefore inappropriate.
> >> > >>
> >> > >>   The tunnel is being established with EAP-TLS so we are
limited
> > to
> >> > >> TLS ciphersuites and the authentication they provide. If a TLS
> >> > > ciphersuite
> >> > >> was appropriate always and everywhere then we would not need
any
> >> other
> >> > >> EAP methods, we'd just do EAP-TLS. But that is not the case.
Also
> >> it
> >> > > is
> >> > >> a requirement to tunnel additional EAP methods inside the
tunnel
> > so
> >> > >> obviously there are EAP methods that provide something that a
TLS
> >> > >> ciphersuite does not.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> > What I am saying is what kind of server authentication
> >> credentials
> >> > > could
> >> > >> > be used inside an anonymous tunnel that could not be used to
> >> > >> > authenticate the server in the tunnel protocol? (given that
> >> privacy
> >> > > is
> >> > >> > not the issue)
> >> > >>
> >> > >>   A low-entropy password that can easily be remembered and
> > entered
> >> by
> >> > > a
> >> > >> human with low probability of error.
> >> > > [KH] I asked what kind of SERVER credentials not peer
credentials.
> >> > >>
> >> > >>   Dan.
> >> > >>
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Emu mailing list
> >> Emu@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emu
> >
> 
> 
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