Re: [Fecframe] FECFrame WG Minutes IETF 75
"Ali C. Begen (abegen)" <abegen@cisco.com> Mon, 31 August 2009 21:18 UTC
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Thread-Topic: [Fecframe] FECFrame WG Minutes IETF 75
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From: "Ali C. Begen (abegen)" <abegen@cisco.com>
To: "Watson, Mark" <watson@qualcomm.com>, Ye-Kui Wang <yekuiwang@huawei.com>
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Cc: fecframe@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Fecframe] FECFrame WG Minutes IETF 75
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I think 2/3 are the right approaches to take. If a scheme only cares about SDP, the choice is straightforward. If it cares about both SDP and binary protocols, it can adopt option 2 or 3. Between 2 and 3, I have a slight preference for 2. -acbegen > -----Original Message----- > From: fecframe-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:fecframe-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Watson, > Mark > Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 7:54 PM > To: Ye-Kui Wang > Cc: fecframe@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Fecframe] FECFrame WG Minutes IETF 75 > > All, > > Regarding the question of whether the scheme-specific information > should be encoded in base64 or ASCII within SDP: the idea of the > framework is to provide separation between fec schemes and the > protocols that use them. So the fec scheme does not know whether the > scheme-specific information will be carried in SDP or something else. > A binary format was chosen so that if 'something else' is a binary > protocol then the scheme-specific information can be efficiently > carried. > > So, then we have three options if we want to stick with the decision > of the meeting: > 1) abandon this idea of scheme/protocol independence and say that > fecframe works only with SDP. > 2) require schemes to define scheme-specific information in ASCII form > and any binary protocols that are defined in future will need just to > encapsulate those text strings, even of thils is a little inefficient > 3) require schemes to define both text and binary versions of the > scheme-specific inormation > > Regards, > > Mark > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 31, 2009, at 8:59 AM, "Ye-Kui Wang" <yekuiwang@huawei.com> wrote: > > > > > A couple of more comments: > > > >> Zou ZiXuan (ZZ): draft-zixuan-fecframe-source-mi-0 – > >> presenting for colleagues > >> > >> AB: Is it okay for the repair packet to have the FEC payload > >> header – it must have something anyway – but you are adding > >> this kind of header to the source packets? > >> > >> ZZ: No, FEC payload header is not added to the source packet, > >> it’s added to the repair packet and the information mapping packet. > >> > >> AB: Do we really need to consider non-framework capable receivers? > >> > >> ME: I don’t believe this violates our charter. But why are > >> you doing this work? > >> > >> ZZ: For RTP receivers that my use FEC but do not support the > >> FECFramework. > >> > > > > What I said was something like "For RTP receivers not using FEC and > > not support the FECFramework, e.g. RFC 3984 recievers". > > > >> AB: We don’t modify the source packets anyway so this is not > >> a problem. > >> > >> ZZ: The draft says it is recommended though optional to > >> include this data. > >> > >> AB: All the cenarios we are aware of already use RTP and have > >> sequence numbers so don’t need to include this data. > >> > >> ME: Chairs should prepair a letter to the list for use cases > >> to see if we have responses. > >> > >> AB: This MIU would have to go into a separate datagram. What > >> happens if it is lost or reordered. We need to be protected, > >> robust at the receiver side. > >> > > > > After the above comment I said that the draft does specify ways for > > robustness, but anyway first of all we need to justify that the > > problem is valid and needs a solution. I think it is valueable for > > readers of the minutes to understand better the context if this > > comment is added. > > > > BR, YK > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: fecframe-bounces@ietf.org > >> [mailto:fecframe-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Greg Shepherd > >> Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 3:11 PM > >> To: fecframe@ietf.org > >> Subject: [Fecframe] FECFrame WG Minutes IETF 75 > >> > >> Please take a look at the posted minutes and send me any > >> corrections/feedback. They are available on the IETF WG > >> materials page but I've pasted them here for your reading pleasure. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Greg > >> > >> ----snip---- > >> > >> FECFrame WG Minutes, IETF 75, Stockholm, Sweden, July 27th > >> > >> Greg Shepherd (GS) – Agenda and status > >> Framework draft should be ready for last call after the meeting > >> But we missed the cake ☹ > >> > >> GS (for Mark Watson) > >> Draft-ietf-fecframe-framework-05: > >> Many comments on the list. Most were clarification of > >> terms. IANA considerations defined. No large changes to the > >> framework per se, just mostly clarifications. Should be ready > >> for last call after this meeting. > >> > >> Draft-ietf-fecframe-raptor-01: > >> Some minor clarifications, and updated contact info. Also > >> should be ready for last call after the meeting. > >> > >> Marshall Eubanks (ME): > >> Should we have the framework document go through the > >> whole last-call process? > >> > >> GS: We had to rev it, due to so many comments on the list. So > >> it will go through the last call process as it is now and > >> will reflect any new comments agreed upon through the process. > >> > >> Ali Begen (AB): > >> Draft-ietf-fecframe-sdp-elements-03 > >> Just a couple of issues in the previous version but > >> were outside this draft, regarding grouping issues in SDP. > >> MMUSIC has updated RFC3388bis so it should be going for > >> last call, and accordingly updated RFC4756bis. We now have > >> what we needed for the grouping semantics. > >> I asked for last-call from MMUSIC for this draft. > >> Waiting on people from this group to read and review. Please > >> review so we can finalize RFC4756bis. It is a normative > >> reference for the SDP-Elements draft. > >> Second issue of the SDP draft was the priority of repair flows. > >> Previously we had a priority parameter in SDP to indicate > >> decoding order of the repair flows set by the sender side. > >> But “priority” word had several prior meanings. So now we’re > >> going with preference level. > >> It is optional. If you have multiple repair flows but you > >> want your receivers to start decoding from a particular > >> repair flow you can set the priority of decoding in SDP. > >> Whether they follow the preference level is optional. > >> One issue that came up on the list was about a textual > >> representation of the FEC scheme-specific information field. > >> Some think it should be a human-readable ASCII field and > >> others think it should be binary. We need to make a decision. > >> > >> ME: Are there any existing deployments? > >> ME: I have a mild preference to ASCII. > >> AB: I think you are an exception. > >> GS: From memory the only issue which arose was around the > >> deployment of a middle box that needed to decode the FEC > >> Scheme-specific information field. > >> AB: Still an open issue. > >> > >> Collin Perkins (CP): If it’s going into SDP in needs to be text. > >> SDP work in the IETF has always defined to be ASCII > >> human-readable > >> If it’s something that has been defined in another > >> standards body as a binary block then we ….mumble, mumble.. > >> Show the counter example > >> Ultimately it doesn’t make much difference. ASCII may > >> be easier to debug, binary may be more efficient – pick one > >> and move on. > >> > >> AB: The whole information field is maybe 10 digits > >> > >> Room: Base64 – 1 hand > >> ASCII – 7 hands > >> > >> AB: We’re going to go with ASCII. This info will be included > >> in the draft then I’ll ask to move to last call. Of course it > >> will be waiting on the framework draft. > >> > >> GS: On process, can we forward them all at the same time > >> though they are dependent. Magnus? Can they progress together? > >> > >> Magnus Westerlund (MW): Once you’ve established WG consensus, > >> you can move them in parallel. Still need individual proto write-ups. > >> > >> Zou ZiXuan (ZZ): draft-zixuan-fecframe-source-mi-0 – > >> presenting for colleagues > >> > >> AB: Is it okay for the repair packet to have the FEC payload > >> header – it must have something anyway – but you are adding > >> this kind of header to the source packets? > >> > >> ZZ: No, FEC payload header is not added to the source packet, > >> it’s added to the repair packet and the information mapping packet. > >> > >> AB: Do we really need to consider non-framework capable receivers? > >> > >> ME: I don’t believe this violates our charter. But why are > >> you doing this work? > >> > >> ZZ: For RTP receivers that my use FEC but do not support the > >> FECFramework. > >> > >> AB: We don’t modify the source packets anyway so this is not > >> a problem. > >> > >> ZZ: The draft says it is recommended though optional to > >> include this data. > >> > >> AB: All the cenarios we are aware of already use RTP and have > >> sequence numbers so don’t need to include this data. > >> > >> ME: Chairs should prepair a letter to the list for use cases > >> to see if we have responses. > >> > >> AB: This MIU would have to go into a separate datagram. What > >> happens if it is lost or reordered. We need to be protected, > >> robust at the receiver side. > >> > >> Einat Yellin (EY): draft-galanos-fecframe-rtp-reedsolomon-mf-00 > >> > >> Dave Oran (DO): There is an obvious goal for > >> video-conferencing which is not in your goal list which is > >> low source delay. Low recovery delay obviously, but long > >> block will add more delay so are you going to show how this > >> also provides low source delay? > >> > >> EY: Some background – trying to compensate for burst packet > >> loss across multiple RTP flows. > >> The motivation is for video but there is nothing in the > >> draft specifying the application for video only so any RTP > >> payload would work. > >> > >> CP: Just trying to understand the use case. So you have an > >> audio flow and a video flow and you want to generate one > >> repair flow for the two or is it layered video flows? So all > >> the flows are generated from the same host/user? > >> > >> EY: Different video flows which could be layered video or > >> multiple video for a 3D video. > >> > >> CP: Just trying to see how they would map to RTP and it would > >> be easier if they were in someway related rather than separate. > >> > >> Bill Versteig (BV): Is this fundamentally about how they map > >> mutiple flows in the FEC or is there something Reedsolomon > >> specific? A method to combine flows and map to FEC is > >> interesting in the broad sense outside of just Reedsolomon > >> specifically. > >> > >> EY: We don’t specify the specification of Reedsolomon. > >> > >> ME: It would be a good design goal to allow different FEC > >> schemes to be dropped into this solution. > >> > >> EY: It would be more useful to have one draft to define in > >> the generic sense. > >> > >> CP: You’re missing the case where you have multiple SSRCs in > >> one RTP session > >> > >> BV: let’s fix these stream coralation problems in a non > >> FEC-specific way so that we have a framework solution and we > >> won’t have to do this for every FEC. > >> > >> CP: Try to think of more general use cases provided it > >> doesn’t break this use case. > >> > >> ME: If this is going to be applied in a more generic case > >> then we should have some sort of registry. > >> > >> CP: We have a registry – it’s the MIME-type registry. > >> > >> CP: You show repair window in microsecs? Perhaps RTP > >> timestamp units instead, but complicated for multiple rows, > >> that way it exactly maps onto the source flows. > >> > >> CP: Great open issues as applied to RTP > >> FEC across unrelated RTP (AVT) flows > >> Strongly encouraged to bring to the RTP WG > >> Great interest in solving these issues > >> When you start trying to apply FEC across unrelated > >> sessions then you have really big problems defining what is > >> what and delineating things. > >> It’s not clear that this can be fixed within how RTP works. > >> This would fit better as an AVT draft to be reviewed by > >> FECFrame. > >> Most of the complexity is in the RTP integration, independent > >> of any FEC. > >> > >> Vincent Roca (VR): draft-roca-fecframe-rs-01 > >> > >> AB: DVB was working on un-equal protection for media flows. > >> What happened to that? UpperLayer-FEC > >> > >> Jeff Goldberg (JG): It changed chairs but should still be active > >> > >> AB: 1&2 multiple source flows? (Yes) > >> We should work together for a common > >> Protection of multiple source flow doc is already a WG Item > >> > >> VR: LDPC-staircase > >> > >> VR: LDPC > >> WG Item? (to the list) > >> > >> AB: Pub request of interleave draft > >> 1D/2D draft status? > >> > >> JG: LIason sent to DVB > >> DVB-AL FEC Draft > >> SMTP ref 2022 / draft is incomplete > >> DVB punting back to IETF $ SMPTE > >> Time to complete our work > >> No need to be contingent or wait on liason > >> > >> VR: General RPT payload format? > >> > >> CP: Definded by payload type > >> Multiple flow protection trick to go to AVT > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Fecframe mailing list > >> Fecframe@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fecframe > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Fecframe mailing list > > Fecframe@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fecframe > _______________________________________________ > Fecframe mailing list > Fecframe@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/fecframe
- [Fecframe] FECFrame WG Minutes IETF 75 Greg Shepherd
- Re: [Fecframe] FECFrame WG Minutes IETF 75 Ye-Kui Wang
- Re: [Fecframe] FECFrame WG Minutes IETF 75 Ye-Kui Wang
- Re: [Fecframe] FECFrame WG Minutes IETF 75 Watson, Mark
- Re: [Fecframe] FECFrame WG Minutes IETF 75 Ali C. Begen (abegen)
- Re: [Fecframe] FECFrame WG Minutes IETF 75 Watson, Mark
- Re: [Fecframe] FECFrame WG Minutes IETF 75 Ali C. Begen (abegen)
- Re: [Fecframe] FECFrame WG Minutes IETF 75 Greg Shepherd