IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-hoffmann-gendispatch-policy-stakeholders-03.txt

Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> Fri, 12 January 2024 19:37 UTC

Return-Path: <bob.hinden@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06FA6C14F5F9 for <gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 12 Jan 2024 11:37:19 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.105
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.105 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oyRbrDaXmjnb for <gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 12 Jan 2024 11:37:14 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-yw1-x1136.google.com (mail-yw1-x1136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1136]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A0D9BC14F5F6 for <gendispatch@ietf.org>; Fri, 12 Jan 2024 11:37:09 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-yw1-x1136.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-5f2aab1c0c5so61924727b3.0 for <gendispatch@ietf.org>; Fri, 12 Jan 2024 11:37:09 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1705088228; x=1705693028; darn=ietf.org; h=to:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:date :in-reply-to:from:subject:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=7y8jxSvtNWYUm3rJzQtUpTjunbLCeQCIRvgnDmGZGdo=; b=QJjjkOjpgaOXPf7/kmAZ6E25slKTmMUDdVfR0ayMo+T82eL4wwBbtyLo8fxTSqfO5j lMkWhg+1mHVr1WkzDiEhOVR14I6D+/+9eTAh3HTtxVGvHbnCK2loyTmXn3dIqq1ilWkT kiHfVegAg3K8WfMwYbv3vgAUtE8A57B/3bG87AXEsOIyMv3ISdfykTuBnNJxF/ewWQw7 +CamRoQSXhaV7Aj5AyHwHsDhkDxWvJ4kOF/TdYHufpbQ4eA7Yygun/XALTLkp0Tn0mdH AaB3HkN7VYWGUCSQNOiYfhmlPvkL5ACCFu7SlKRA3NnTKw6KuGVPLZh1sxn0/wxLlaLu ag7w==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1705088228; x=1705693028; h=to:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:cc:date :in-reply-to:from:subject:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=7y8jxSvtNWYUm3rJzQtUpTjunbLCeQCIRvgnDmGZGdo=; b=Bfa6QRtNKrn4dcZ2HmOykECSfYl3Ar7fVYcxRqQcLr+VBZzPc2EvlnUaF41ouyshRD eK5FW8UHp8f3FLP8um1HPEHQ6Z4/q14HRmCpcTNCdIcUaOzkCgaYEzuCFj4ocYN+PPbg UsNSQoLgMNDJnr6j8ws8P6omoYYRcUqNPTQeOikrnxSr+dbgJbjF8UIlu5RyxD43ar0R VF3I30MFy1yW9m6/3s9cIIgCHRNpwC01BE8SNEWITG+7TlVhIR4D6JODArCf5vxDqapf rVr5Eax4Hup8x7Cenq7/00/Wm41o09Jx47aioMp2U5htgMfZJ235HG0jektpbVXAG9tE wnEA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwICz8u8Y9NGF3D9jq9IOZQDCjDCkPZWom4j3EYq8BK9Dq1IxU/ r10yYIr0Fo1lR1ANRs4ZldM=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEcw2ff86r8W8K3mGs36KfxekKchdonrK79TuibhHHsh1Gjk6JTiQwTxjFhTt3nsIyChHWSLg==
X-Received: by 2002:a0d:e5c1:0:b0:5f7:36fd:92b0 with SMTP id o184-20020a0de5c1000000b005f736fd92b0mr1339935ywe.3.1705088228459; Fri, 12 Jan 2024 11:37:08 -0800 (PST)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (99-31-208-116.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net. [99.31.208.116]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z188-20020a0df0c5000000b005f900790763sm1604187ywe.49.2024.01.12.11.37.07 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 12 Jan 2024 11:37:08 -0800 (PST)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.300.61.1.2\))
From: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <bafd92c2-02af-64ab-99e1-57b4841ba435@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2024 11:36:47 -0800
Cc: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>, gendispatch@ietf.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <FA257F6A-BBCF-44DC-B45C-A3D065F57237@gmail.com>
References: <170490120223.4091.2528773224537477881@ietfa.amsl.com> <bafd92c2-02af-64ab-99e1-57b4841ba435@gmail.com>
To: Brian Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.300.61.1.2)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/YEwChOxshMLx-1gM7Qx27a1nies>
Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-hoffmann-gendispatch-policy-stakeholders-03.txt
X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: General Area Dispatch <gendispatch.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/gendispatch>, <mailto:gendispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/gendispatch/>
List-Post: <mailto:gendispatch@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:gendispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch>, <mailto:gendispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2024 19:37:19 -0000

Hi,

> On Jan 11, 2024, at 8:37 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I have one question and a comment.
> 
>> Increasingly, the decisions	
>> we take when developing Internet standards are also policy decisions	
>> with trade-offs and implications that are inherently social rather	
>> than purely technical.
> 
> My question is: What is the evidence that this is *increasingly* true?
> In my opinion, IETF decisions have had policy and societal impact since
> IETF 1 in 1986. Most of the Internet's impact on society was the result
> of decisions taken before, say, 1995.

I agree with Brian.   Protocols developed by the IETF (and research activities prior to the IETF) have always had policy and societal impart.  Nothing new here.

In my view the notion that there a a lot of separation between technical and policy decisions is not correct.

Bob



> 
> My comment is that I'd like to see a discussion added on the possible
> detrimental effects of increased participation of "policy stakeholders"
> in IETF technical discussions.


> 
> Regards
>    Brian
> 
> On 11-Jan-24 04:40, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>> Internet-Draft draft-hoffmann-gendispatch-policy-stakeholders-03.txt is now
>> available.
>>    Title:   Policy experts are IETF stakeholders
>>    Authors: Stacie Hoffmann
>>             Marek Blachut
>>    Name:    draft-hoffmann-gendispatch-policy-stakeholders-03.txt
>>    Pages:   11
>>    Dates:   2024-01-10
>> Abstract:
>>    The IETF's work has significance for communities concerned with
>>    societal, economic, and political outcomes, though barriers to
>>    engagement with the IETF exist for non-technical experts from these
>>    communities.  This informational document introduces a problem
>>    statement and gap analysis of existing initiatives related to policy
>>    expert engagement in the IETF.  It aims to be a resource for anyone
>>    interested in working to enable policy expert engagement in IETF
>>    standardisation.
>> The IETF datatracker status page for this Internet-Draft is:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hoffmann-gendispatch-policy-stakeholders/
>> There is also an HTML version available at:
>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-hoffmann-gendispatch-policy-stakeholders-03.html
>> A diff from the previous version is available at:
>> https://author-tools.ietf.org/iddiff?url2=draft-hoffmann-gendispatch-policy-stakeholders-03
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at:
>> rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts
>> _______________________________________________
>> I-D-Announce mailing list
>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> 
> -- 
> Gendispatch mailing list
> Gendispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email