Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization
Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com> Mon, 06 July 2020 21:54 UTC
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References: <CALGR9obRjBSADN1KtKF6jvFVzNS1+JzaS0D0kCVKHKkd4sn+MQ@mail.gmail.com> <459C86F8-A989-4EF4-84DC-3568FF594F36@apple.com> <CANatvzwSpSHd7kZD-4tyMGkBJDdCBi6r_pLBvnaT8rrQy6SBHQ@mail.gmail.com> <CACMu3treK0m2mbpw9FebOjOcEed0bW-DbLbryHJH1DWAHoz+9g@mail.gmail.com> <CAJV+MGy2CytgPVEwEO3nDfpZ6h9+CCL-bODk=65cXexvS3N7Lw@mail.gmail.com> <CALGR9oYDApddLFzXv180TEXpmTaOpDCDNY41PxmbMJK7N4F4zQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAMWgRNaMZxph3zQv+O-SW7=PKBtDuGZNQ4+3X2geyXU545Vx9w@mail.gmail.com> <CAMWgRNaBAodWewpbi4cqFiMLWVd0SDnau7B4x0tjk+i=sMURpQ@mail.gmail.com> <CANatvzyQiNXY6xOYju8afe7-T6ZNMtQTPQE-AkfFK=2_yTzB1Q@mail.gmail.com> <CACj=BEhh+K=uMS613OsDFmvH18miNvm9m11M7QsL02Lc+JxUhg@mail.gmail.com> <CAJV+MGx3-cvPER2q1SPsgTbVP0TwAgPzNCQk_40dDPSr3JfkNg@mail.gmail.com> <CAJV+MGwXLoVe3RWPMCw9iJQ1Qr0TrJOezWq1VWOqrWYnBneQ4Q@mail.gmail.com>
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From: Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2020 22:50:56 +0100
Message-ID: <CALGR9ob5E9ufzut7gZ37HwFvzeUb8mZYcyy=M3xKhS3hCCfyyw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Patrick Meenan <patmeenan@gmail.com>
Cc: Yoav Weiss <yoav@yoav.ws>, Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>, Kinuko Yasuda <kinuko@chromium.org>, Bence Béky <bnc@chromium.org>, Eric Kinnear <ekinnear@apple.com>, Patrick Meenan <pmeenan@webpagetest.org>, HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
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Subject: Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization
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Hi Patrick, Thanks for running this experiment and presenting the data back to the group. Also thanks to the Chrome folk for enabling the disabling flag. Cheers Lucas On Mon, 6 Jul 2020, 21:19 Patrick Meenan, <patmeenan@gmail.com> wrote: > Sorry about the delay, just gathered the results. The full raw results > are here > <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14iyeO--I-K-l7er1kGuW-iTKogsgXFz4Z3M-aowSUdI/edit?usp=sharing>. > It looks like the impact dropped quite a bit across the full 25k URLs but > looking at individual tests the impact is quite dramatic when it does > impact (and it does exactly what we'd expect it to do for those outlier > cases). > > The 95th percentile numbers tend to be the more interesting ones and in > the data set, reprioritization enabled is the control and disabled is the > experiment so positive changes means disabling reprioritization is that > much slower. > > Largest Contentful Paint: 4% slower without reprioritization > Speed Index: 2.75% slower without reprioritization > Dom Content Loaded: 1.3% faster without reprioritization > > This is pretty much (directionally) what we'd expect since > reprioritization boosts the priority of visible images (LPC/Speed Index) > above late-body scripts (DCL). It's particularly dramatic for pages that > use background images for any part of the page because they are discovered > after all other resources and would normally be scheduled after all other > scripts and inline images but if they are visible in the viewport the > reprioritization helps them load much sooner. > > Looking at a few examples of the extreme cases: > > https://www.thehelm.co/ - (Filmstrip > <https://www.webpagetest.org/video/compare.php?tests=200625_MT_32af039543326a2bdb5d87e2adb95fe7-r%3A3-l%3AStock%2C200701_HY_6bb4d26adff32186e991c5b96ffaecea-r%3A1-l%3ADisabled%2C&thumbSize=200&ival=5000&end=full>) - > The main background image in the interstitial loads at < 10s vs 90s without > reprioritization > https://blog.nerdfactory.ai/ - (Filmstrip > <https://www.webpagetest.org/video/compare.php?tests=200616_KZ_496553703935231e5725c252844918db-r%3A1-l%3AStock%2C200616_BJ_798e2417374c03dfa3995586b01444a3-r%3A3-l%3ADisabled%2C&thumbSize=200&ival=5000&end=full>) > - The background image for the main content loads at <5s vs 70s without > reprioritization. No cost to DCL, just prioritized ahead of not-visible > images. > https://events.nuix.com/ - (Filmstrip > <https://www.webpagetest.org/video/compare.php?tests=200628_1A_0e61aa9f59e08f3bbb8e5d9690fe64fb-r%3A3-l%3AStock%2C200628_Q2_1793a50022566cedd6ab48dd871d5c7e-r%3A3-l%3ADisabled%2C&thumbSize=200&ival=5000&end=full>) > - Another hero background image (detecting a theme?) loads at 10s vs 60s > > Looking at a few of the bigger DCL regressions: > > https://oaklandcitychurch.org/ - (Filmstrip > <https://www.webpagetest.org/video/compare.php?tests=200627_XR_fae3bd7aa57238591cb122c9fe634cb7-r%3A2-l%3AStock%2C200627_R9_26ad61b65965e7bf89a8aa27a7d78ff1-r%3A2-l%3ADisabled%2C&thumbSize=200&ival=5000&end=full>) > - DCL got much slower (11s -> 33s) as a direct result of the background > image moving from 30s to 10s (the pop-up interstitial was delayed along > with the scripts that control it). > > For the specific case that most of these tests exposed (background image > discovered late by CSS) it is theoretically possible for Chrome to detect > the position before making the initial request (since it is only discovered > at layout anyway) but that wouldn't help any of the more dynamic cases like > when a user scrolls a page or a carousel rotates and what is on screen > changes dynamically. > > I'm still of the pretty strong opinion that we need reprioritization but > the web won't necessarily break without it and sites (and browsers) may be > able to minimize the impact of not being able to reprioritize (though that > might involve holding back requests and prioritizing locally like Chrome > does for slow HTTP/2 connections). > > > On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 10:17 AM Patrick Meenan <patmeenan@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> An early read on Yoav's Canary test is that most metrics are neutral but >> Largest Contentful Paint degrades ~6.8% on average and 12% at the 95th >> percentile without reprioritization and Speed Index degrades 2.6% on >> average and 5.4% at the 95th percentile. This is not entirely unexpected >> because the main use case for reprioritization in Chrome right now is >> boosting the priority of visible images after layout is done. >> >> We'll see if it holds after the full test is complete. The early read is >> from 3,000 of the 25,000 URLs that we are testing (all https hosted on >> Fastly for simplicity since we know it handles HTTP/2 reprioritization >> correctly). The tests are all run at "3G Fast" speeds with desktop pages >> to maximize the liklihood that there will be time for reprioritization to >> happen. I'll provide the full raw data as well as summary results when the >> test is complete (at least another week, maybe 2). >> >> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 5:43 AM Yoav Weiss <yoav@yoav.ws> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 9:55 AM Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 2020年6月11日(木) 6:46 Kinuko Yasuda <kinuko@chromium.org>: >>>> >>>>> (Sorry, sent it too soon...) >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 6:12 AM Kinuko Yasuda <kinuko@chromium.org> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> Reg: reprioritization benefit I can share some recent data for >>>>>> Chrome. For the two cases that are currently discussed I'm actually not >>>>>> fully sure about its benefit. >>>>>> >>>>>> For the renderer-triggered image reprioritization cases: this is a >>>>>> bit interesting one, we recently found two things: >>>>>> - Delaying to start low-prio requests could often work better (partly >>>>>> because of server-side handling) than re-prioritizing while inflight >>>>>> - In-lab measurements (tested with top 10k real sites, both on Mobile >>>>>> and Desktop) showed that removing in-flight re-prioritization doesn't >>>>>> impact page load performance a lot >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Let me stress though that testing this with servers that can properly >>>>> handle reprioritization could change the landscape, and again this isn't >>>>> really capturing how it affects long-lived request cases, or cases where >>>>> tabs go foreground & background while loading, so for now I'm not very >>>>> motivated to remove the reprioritization feature either. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Kinuko, >>>> >>>> Thank you for sharing your data. I feel a bit sad that reprioritization >>>> isn't showing much benefit at the moment. I tend to agree that we are >>>> likely to see different results between server implementations and HTTP >>>> versions being used. The effectiveness of reprioritization depends on the >>>> depth of the send buffer (after prioritization decision is made), at least >>>> to certain extent. >>>> >>> >>> FWIW, I added a flag >>> <https://chromium-review.googlesource.com/c/chromium/src/+/2232923> to >>> turn off Chromium's H2 request prioritization. I believe +Pat Meenan >>> <patmeenan@gmail.com> is currently running tests with and without this >>> flag a list of servers we estimate is likely to handle them well. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I suspect this is maybe because server-side handling is not always >>>>>> perfect and most of requests on the web are short-lived, and this may not >>>>>> be true for the cases where long-running requests matter. I don't have >>>>>> data for whether may impact background / foreground cases (e.g. Chrome >>>>>> tries to lower priorities when tabs become background) >>>>>> >>>>>> For download cases, Chrome always starts a new download with a low >>>>>> priority (even if it has started as a navigation), so reprioritization >>>>>> doesn't happen. >>>>>> >>>>>> Kinuko >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 1:21 AM Lucas Pardue < >>>>>> lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 4:27 PM Patrick Meenan <patmeenan@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Eric's download example is a great one for exposing the risks that >>>>>>>> would come for an implementation that supported prioritization but not >>>>>>>> reprioritization. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Take the trivial example of an anchor link that links to a download >>>>>>>> (say, a 200MB installer of some kind): >>>>>>>> - When the user clicks on the link, the browser assumes it is doing >>>>>>>> a navigation and issues the request with the "HTML" priority (relatively >>>>>>>> high, possibly non-incremental >>>>>>>> - When the response starts coming back, it has the >>>>>>>> content-disposition to download to a file. >>>>>>>> - At this point, the 200MB download will block every other >>>>>>>> lower-priority request on the same connection (or possibly navigation if it >>>>>>>> is non-incremental) >>>>>>>> - The user clicks on another page on the same site and gets nothing >>>>>>>> or a broken experience until the 200MB download completes >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Without reprioritization the browser will effectively have to burn >>>>>>>> the existing QUIC connection and issue any requests on a new connection >>>>>>>> (and repeat for each new download). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Implementing prioritization without reprioritization in this case >>>>>>>> is worse than having no prioritization support at all. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks Eric for presenting this case, and Patrick for breaking it >>>>>>> down. That does seem like a pretty bad outcome. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is this a good candidate for a test case? IIUC correctly the problem >>>>>>> might occur today with HTTP/2 depending on how exclusive priorities are >>>>>>> used. I'm curious if browsers can share any more information about what >>>>>>> they do already. How does Firefox manage such a resource with it's priority >>>>>>> groups? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>> Lucas >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kazuho Oku >>>> >>>
- Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Lucas Pardue
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Yoav Weiss
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Lucas Pardue
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Patrick Meenan
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Lucas Pardue
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Yoav Weiss
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Eric Kinnear
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Kazuho Oku
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Martin Thomson
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Bence Béky
- Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: Exte… Lucas Pardue
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Dmitri Tikhonov
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Patrick Meenan
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Patrick Meenan
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Lucas Pardue
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Lucas Pardue
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Dmitri Tikhonov
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Roy T. Fielding
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Kinuko Yasuda
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Kinuko Yasuda
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Kazuho Oku
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Yoav Weiss
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Martin Thomson
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Kazuho Oku
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Stefan Eissing
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Yoav Weiss
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Stefan Eissing
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Yoav Weiss
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Stefan Eissing
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Yoav Weiss
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Patrick Meenan
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Yoav Weiss
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Patrick Meenan
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Kazuho Oku
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Yoav Weiss
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Barry Pollard
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Barry Pollard
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Kazuho Oku
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Yoav Weiss
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Lucas Pardue
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Tom Bergan
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Lucas Pardue
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Tom Bergan
- Re: Priority implementation complexity (was: Re: … Lucas Pardue
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Patrick Meenan
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Patrick Meenan
- Re: Extensible Priorities and Reprioritization Lucas Pardue
- Reprioritization - implementation intent Mark Nottingham
- Re: Reprioritization - implementation intent Eric Kinnear
- Nice to have guidance (was: Re: Reprioritization … Lucas Pardue
- Re: Nice to have guidance (was: Re: Reprioritizat… Eric Kinnear
- Re: Reprioritization - implementation intent Yoav Weiss
- Re: Reprioritization - implementation intent Yoav Weiss
- Re: Reprioritization - implementation intent Yoav Weiss