Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Fri, 14 June 2019 01:38 UTC
Return-Path: <john-ietf@jck.com>
X-Original-To: i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ED021200F6 for <i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 13 Jun 2019 18:38:35 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bPtpyTxbpr9G for <i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 13 Jun 2019 18:38:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B256D120096 for <i18ndir@ietf.org>; Thu, 13 Jun 2019 18:38:28 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from <john-ietf@jck.com>) id 1hbbAg-0000R4-Cm; Thu, 13 Jun 2019 21:38:26 -0400
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 21:38:20 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Pete Resnick <resnick@episteme.net>, i18ndir@ietf.org
cc: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com>
Message-ID: <843EAB4535391A494DA216CC@PSB>
In-Reply-To: <F2B84580-7E5A-4B86-BF9C-0205D4E6121D@episteme.net>
References: <F2B84580-7E5A-4B86-BF9C-0205D4E6121D@episteme.net>
X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10
X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com
X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/i18ndir/baDLk9LoN4WyP4dUp0mpQPT3Q1E>
Subject: Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage
X-BeenThere: i18ndir@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Internationalization Directorate <i18ndir.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/i18ndir>, <mailto:i18ndir-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/i18ndir/>
List-Post: <mailto:i18ndir@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:i18ndir-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i18ndir>, <mailto:i18ndir-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 01:38:35 -0000
Dear esteemed and rapidly-moving secretaries, Noting that tomorrow makes a month since you sent your "get back to work" note, that there has been nothing more from you or anyone else, and that things seem to be moving at the nearly same rate they were after last summer's BOF, I thought I'd check back in and tell people, more or less as a heads-up, what Patrik and I have been up to. Some news: (1) Patrik and I have been working on a document that clarifies and cleans up the new Unicode version review process that was, in retrospect, not very well specified in RFC 5892. The I-D identifies the two types of reviews, explained expectations, and clarifies the role of the IANA tables. It probably needs one more pass by each of us and then will be posted as draft-klensin-idna-unicode-review. (2) One thing that document notes is that RFC 5892 very nearly requires that, if Unicode changes code point properties in a way that changes the IDNA2008 derived property, we adjust IDNA2008 to preserve IDNA stability and consistency rather than following along with Unicode. That is consistent with the promises we made to the registrar community about preserving stability. It is also the exact opposite of what we have actually done with the Unicode 6.x, 11.0, and 12.0 reviews. For future versions of Unicode, we propose to revert to the specified behavior in which stability for IDNA is at least a strong preference. If that is what we do, it may add yet another irony to the collection around things that are called IDNA. IIR, the original core reason for the creation of UTR#46 was that IDNA2008 wasn't forward compatible enough with IDNA2003. The UTR#46 model was that if a label or potential label was valid at one point, it needed to be valid forever. When we track Unicode changes --as we and UTR#46 have been doing-- we create instability for IDNA label validity. If we start favoring the preservation of label validity (and invalidity) as 5982 specifies, then the gap between IDNA2008 and UTR#46 almost certainly increases. (3) If anyone hasn't noticed, Unicode 12.1 has been published. Only one new code point since 12.0 and it decomposes properly and there are no other changes, but we need to decide whether we are reviewing, publishing summaries about, abd publishing IANA tables for, interim (i.e., NN.x, x not zero) versions of Unicode. The I-D mentioned above will have some text about that, but we are open to different conclusions than it proposes. (4) I'm working on a draft that explicitly addresses assumptions that were made in the IDNA2008 design that have turned out to not be true or not work as expected. It is partially a follow-on to draft-klensin-idna-unicode-7-0-0 but without a lot of the details and alternatives about non-decomposing characters. Watch for something that will probably be called draft-klensin-idna-architecture-00 in the fairly near future (unless I shift to directorate time, in which case you should expect it in early 2020). (5) draft-klensin-idna-architecture, discussed above, necessarily contains a reference to draft-klensin-idna-rfc5891bis, the registry restrictions document, so that should be on someone's agenda too. (6) I suspect draft-klensin-idna-unicode-7-0-0, or at least those details, of the non-decomposing character issues, should be published for the historical record, so it would be good for people to start thinking about that and what should be in it. That brings me to a key question. Noting that the main reason for proposing the BOF that led to this directorate was to try to get work on core I18N, and especially IDNA, issues under control, my preference would be that the directorate take a look at the drafts mentioned above (and probably Asmus's work on troublesome characters, etc.) and make a recommendation to the ADs about how to handle them. An alternative would be for us to introduce the drafts on the IDNAbis WG mailing list and then pass them directly to the ADs with a request for AD sponsorship and, if needed, a short-term restart of that WG, which would get them to the directorate that way. There is a Plan C, but I'm quite confident that almost no one would like it. So, Glorious Leaders and other directorate participants, how would you like to proceed? john --On Tuesday, May 14, 2019 13:01 -0500 Pete Resnick <resnick@episteme.net> wrote: > Greetings, > > Your faithful secretaries are getting off of their respective > rear-ends to get this directorate doing its regular > directorate duties. This means reviewing documents that are > entering Last Call (or at the request of a chair or AD) to > look for i18n issues. To do this, we're going to want to > triage those documents, and then assign those with potential > issues to a reviewer; we don't have enough reviewers to look > at every document like GenART does. The two of us can do some > of that triage, but we could use some help, and for > educational purposes we think it would be good to get helpers. > > A few of you have mentioned that you don't feel up to doing > detailed i18n reviews of documents, but would be interested in > doing (or learning to do) document triage. Please drop private > email to either or both of us and let us know. Our plan is to > have a small group "review meeting" with potential triagers > and triage some documents together so you get the hang of it. > We'll also be creating a wiki of triage hints and tricks based > on the i18n bits of the old "Typical Apps Area Issues" wiki > <https://trac.ietf.org/trac/app/wiki/TypicalAppsAreaIssues> > that the Apps ADs made some time ago. > > For the rest of you: Expect to see some documents appear in > your queue in the next little bit. > > 2 x Pete
- [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage Pete Resnick
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage Marc Blanchet
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage Asmus Freytag
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage Asmus Freytag (c)
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage Patrik Fältström
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage Marc Blanchet
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage Pete Resnick
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage Barry Leiba
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage John Levine
- [I18ndir] draft-faltstrom-unicode12 (was: Re: Get… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] draft-faltstrom-unicode12 (was: Re:… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage Asmus Freytag
- Re: [I18ndir] draft-faltstrom-unicode12 (was: Re:… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] draft-faltstrom-unicode12 Asmus Freytag
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage John R Levine
- [I18ndir] Civility (Was: Getting restarted and tr… Pete Resnick
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage Asmus Freytag (c)