[I18ndir] draft-faltstrom-unicode12 (was: Re: Getting restarted and triage)
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Sat, 22 June 2019 00:39 UTC
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Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 20:39:07 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Pete Resnick <resnick@episteme.net>, Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
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Subject: [I18ndir] draft-faltstrom-unicode12 (was: Re: Getting restarted and triage)
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As indicated in my earlier note, this probably deserves a message, and thread, of its own... --On Friday, June 21, 2019 14:12 -0500 Pete Resnick <resnick@episteme.net> wrote: >... > (I'm of course leaving aside draft-faltstrom-unicode12, which > is on Alexey's plate.) But you shouldn't because there are two special issues with it, especially given that it has waited this long, that probably justify (require?) opening a Last Call as if it were completely new and reviewing the document. The causes for both are addressed in draft-klensin-idna-unicode-review but, of course, it, and its conclusions, are not addressed in draft-faltstrom-unicode12. At the risk of introducing actual technical topics, they area: (1) If we are going to do a new review for every new version of Unicode --which is more or less what I think the community was promised and 5892 implies -- then Unicode 12.1 is out and another review and set of tables are required. The current version of draft-klensin-idna-unicode-review makes that requirement apply only to major versions, i.e., 12.0 and then 13.0 when it arrives, but, unless it is put out there and gets community consensus, the fact that the current version of draft-faltstrom-unicode12 does not address 12.1 is a known technical omission. The good news is that 12.1 is trivial, with one new code point that, incidentally, decomposes the way RFC 5892 anticipates. But still (and unrelated to 12.1)... (2) RFC 5892 is reasonably clear that the intended normal resolution when a code point is discovered whose Unicode properties have changed enough between Unicode versions to alter their derived property status under IDNA is to list that code point as an exception, thereby being sure that any possible label that was valid earlier remains valid and that any possible label that was invalid earlier (with the obvious exception of ones containing previously-unassigned code points) remains invalid. We didn't do it that way with the Unicode 6.0 review reflected in RFC 6452. Instead, we decided to just accept the new properties and stay consistent with calculations on the current Unicode version. We didn't really explain why, nor did we change 5892 to encourage that choice. I presume the reason (or at least our excuse in retrospect) was that Unicode 6.0 followed quickly enough on the core IDNA2008 documents and came before IDNA2008 was widely used, that consistency with Unicode was reasonable and would cause no damage (especially given the code points involved). We didn't follow the RFC 5892 requirement in the review for Unicode 11.0 or the retrospective reviews for 7.x, 8.x, 9.x. and 10.x either (some of those did not contain incompatibility that would raise any concerns -- see draft-faltstrom-unicode12 for discussion). Our reason for that, or at least my understanding of the IAB's reasoning in telling Patrik to go ahead and get the tables out, was that we concluded that, after so much time has passed, there was significant risk that tables that had been calculated directly from the relevant Unicode versions would diverge from the ones IANA was about to publish, creating a different and harmful kind of incompatibility. draft-faltstrom-unicode12 does discuss this (in Section 5), but the explanation is, IMO, less than clear in the context of the strong preference in 5892. There is no such excuse for 12.0 (much less 12.1): the reviews occurred more or less contemporaneously with the release of the new versions of Unicode and, if we were going to return to the specification in RFC 5892, that probably deserves some comment (keep reading before telling me what I/we already know). But, in reviewing the discussion in the first part of the year, the reason why 5892 had the default it did, and the various promises the IETF made to the domain name registry and user communities about stability, Patrik and I concluded that, rather than change 5892 to prefer Unicode conformance, it was time to return to the consensus at that time IDNA2008 was adopted and prefer label stability for future reviews, at least unless there was a really strong reason (that we were willing to document) for doing otherwise. Obviously, that conclusion is subject to discussion, but I'm now convinced the argument for doing what we concluded should be done in 2010 is quite strong. With 12.0 (and 12.1), we lucked out and there are no code points whose properties have changed in a way that requires action --either staying with Unicode, its properties, and their implications or preserving compatibility via the backwards compatibility table in IDNA2008. But the text of draft-faltstrom-unicode12 implies that the way we look at and handle code points is unchanged from 6.0 through 12.0 and it isn't. So the I-D probably needs either a normative reference to draft-klensin-idna-unicode-review, a bit of discussion that isn't there yet, or both. So, while we can sit on that until Alexey finishes his writeup if you (Pete, Peter, Alexey, directorate participants) like, it will come back to get us sooner or later. And this is another reason why these documents are fairly seriously intertwined. best, john
- [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage Pete Resnick
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage Marc Blanchet
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage Asmus Freytag
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage Asmus Freytag (c)
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage Patrik Fältström
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage Marc Blanchet
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage Pete Resnick
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage Barry Leiba
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage John Levine
- [I18ndir] draft-faltstrom-unicode12 (was: Re: Get… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] draft-faltstrom-unicode12 (was: Re:… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage Asmus Freytag
- Re: [I18ndir] draft-faltstrom-unicode12 (was: Re:… John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] draft-faltstrom-unicode12 Asmus Freytag
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage John R Levine
- [I18ndir] Civility (Was: Getting restarted and tr… Pete Resnick
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage John C Klensin
- Re: [I18ndir] Getting restarted and triage Asmus Freytag (c)