Re: [i2rs] FW: I-D Action: draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-data-model-04.txt

[Mach Chen <[e-mail]>]

Hi Alia, Acee and others,

> From: i2rs [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Alia Atlas
> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 1:08 AM
> To: Acee Lindem (acee)
> Cc: Jeffrey Haas; [e-mail]; Jeff Tantsura; Susan Hares
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] FW: I-D Action: draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-data-model-04.txt
> 
> Acee,
> 
> As Sue has said, the I2RS Info Model has passed WGLC and is just waiting for
> the DM to be done in order to progress.  Obviously, substantial technical
> concerns are always welcome - there's a long way between WGLC and final
> IESG approval; I do not think that you have clearly described your technical
> concerns.  Are you mixing up using a tunnel for forwarding with provisioning
> the tunnel??
> 
> The I2RS RIB model is not for provisioning tunnels.  It is intended so that
> traffic can be forwarded properly, regardless of the abstraction.  For instance,
> with MPLS, a packet could be sent out with an arbitrary label or label stack, a
> packet could follow an LSP, or a packet could follow a tunnel.   By providing
> the ability to forward via these different layers of abstraction, the RIB model
> allows forwarding to occur correctly even when a tunnel or LSP changes - just
> like a next-hop can be specified to forward like a different prefix and then
> follows that prefix.
> 
> I certainly do not see the I2RS RIB model as creating tunnels - but merely being
> able to use ones that already exist.

I totally agree with this.

Best regards,
Mach
> 
> Now, if your objection is that the I2RS RIB model should use a common
> grouping that describes all types of tunnels, I have yet to see one.  The efforts
> to provide YANG models for tunnels are still quite immature.
> Describing what types of groupings would be useful is the type of work that I
> hope the design team will do.
> Asking I2RS to stall until time can be dedicated isn't appropriate.
> 
> Regards,
> Alia
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 8:34 AM, Acee Lindem (acee) <[e-mail]>
> wrote:
> From: Susan Hares <[e-mail]>
> Date: Monday, November 23, 2015 at 9:57 PM
> To: Acee Lindem <[e-mail]>, "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>
> Cc: Alia Atlas <[e-mail]>, Jeff Haas <[e-mail]>, Jeff Tantsura
> <[e-mail]>
> Subject: RE: [i2rs] FW: I-D Action: draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-data-model-04.txt
> 
> Acee:
> 
> Is your input individual input or input from the routing architecture for yang
> models?
> 
> Individual.
> 
> 
> 
> <I2RS chair hat on>
> The routing architecture for yang models is incomplete without the
> consideration of the I2RS ephemeral state and I2RS architecture.  Asking the
> I2RS WG to change a document that is in WG LC based on an incomplete
> architectural document is not reasonable.
> 
> My comment with respect to tunnel provisioning is not based on any
> architecture document.
> 
> An alignment between
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-routing-cfg/ without the
> consideration of the I2RS ephemeral state is an incomplete alignment and a
> problematic  approach for I2RS WG’s efforts.
> 
> I2RS models should augment the base models with ephemeral state.
> 
> 
> 
> In a volunteer organization, each person has the right to makes choices in what
> they have time to do.   If you do not have bandwidth to provide an adequate
> routing architecture for yang models that considers ephemeral state or its
> needs, that is your choice.  Unless you have a concrete proposal for the
> ephemeral state that covers I2RS RIB and
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-routing-cfg/, the I2RS WG
> LC will be closed after 2 week (11/23 – 12/7) WG review of the in
> draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-data-model-04.txt.
> 
> We have proposed tunnel models, draft-ietf-netmod-routing-cfg is not meant to
> supplant them. BTW, we don’t plan to
> update draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-data-model-04.txt. Updates based on I2RS will be in
> the a next-hop augmentation draft that extends draft-ietf-netmod-rtg-cfg.
> 
> 
> 
> Please remember that the I2RS RIB model has two parts:  I2RS Informational
> Model and I2RS Data Model.  The I2RS Informational Model and the I2RS
> Data Model have descriptions on the soft tunnel provisioning as
> mechanisms.  Questions at this point must demonstrate a knowledge of
> these documents or suggest specific changes to the documents.   If you wish
> to raise the following questions, please do this in light of specific sections that
> include both the I2RS Informational Model, the I2RS Data Model, and I2RS
> architecture.
> 
> a)      I2RS tunnels must include additions beyond encapsulation,
> b)      Why the I2RS Informational Model and the I2RS Data Model do not
> provide the soft tunnel provisioning or describe the specifics of this provision?
> 
> The I2RS Informational Model has examples for these tunnels.  You are
> welcome to make proposal for specific changes to the I2RS Informational
> Model or the I2RS Data Model.  The I2RS Informational Model has completed
> WG LC so the bar for substantive comments is high.
> 
> I don’t believe this excerpt from the RIB information models describes soft
> tunnel provisioning for each of the tunnels proposed in the RIB data model:
> 
> 7.2.1.  Tunnel nexthops
> 
>    A tunnel nexthop points to a tunnel of some kind.  Traffic that goes
>    over the tunnel gets encapsulated with the tunnel encap.  Tunnel
>    nexthops are useful for abstracting out details of the network, by
>    having the traffic seamlessly route between network edges.  At the
>    end of a tunnel, the tunnel will get decapsulated.  Thus the grammar
>    supports two kinds of operations, one for encap and another for
>    decap.
> 
> Acee
> 
> 
> 
> <I2RS chair hat off>
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Sue Hares
> 
> From: i2rs [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Acee Lindem (acee)
> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 7:30 PM
> To: Susan Hares; [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] FW: I-D Action: draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-data-model-04.txt
> 
> Sue,
> 
> From: i2rs <[e-mail]> on behalf of Susan Hares
> <[e-mail]>
> Date: Monday, November 23, 2015 at 5:45 PM
> To: "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>
> Subject: [i2rs] FW: I-D Action: draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-data-model-04.txt
> 
> Resending to I2RS WG.
> 
> From: Susan Hares [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 5:33 PM
> To: 'Jeff Tantsura'; 'Acee Lindem (acee)'; 'Mach Chen'; '[e-mail]'
> Cc: 'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Alia Atlas'; 'Benoit Claise (bclaise)'
> Subject: RE: [i2rs] I-D Action: draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-data-model-04.txt
> 
> Jeff and Acee:
> 
> Your suggested change goes against the WG adopted RIB Information draft
> that has been discussed for over 2 years.  The informational draft has been
> through WG LC and you did not make any suggestions or comments during the
> WG LC.  Any change of this matter is not simply something you indicate to the
> authors, but needs to be discussed on the WG as a direction change for the RIB
> IM/DM models.
> 
> Independent of the I2RS efforts, milestones, and processes, I think we need to
> address whether provisioning all these tunnels via RIB installation
> is  appropriate and, additionally, consistent with other WG YANG models. In
> many cases, it would seem there are tunnel attributes other than the encaps
> that need to be provisioned. At a minimum, I think you’d need to either
> reference an RFC describing soft tunnel provisioning or describe the specifics of
> this provisioning.
> 
> 
> Prior to moving this change through WG adoption cycle, the routing
> architectural team needs to have: a) concrete proposal for the ephemeral state
> that covers I2RS RIB and
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-routing-cfg/  and  b) I
> requested this input of Acee Lindem as a representative of the routing
> architecture team.
> 
> The  identification of this problem with tunnel provisioning is a direct outcome
> of this effort.
> 
> 
> 
> I will be glad to work with you on a concrete proposal that you can send to the
> email list and present at the I2RS interim meeting on 12/16/2015 (10-11:30am
> ET).
> 
> I will continue to work on ietf-routing alignment but don’t have the bandwidth
> for the above.
> 
> Acee
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Sue Hares
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: i2rs [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura
> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 4:27 PM
> To: Acee Lindem (acee); Mach Chen; [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] I-D Action: draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-data-model-04.txt
> 
> Hi Mach,
> 
> I agree with Acee’s comments and would encourage you to use
> generic/existing tunnel model(s), please see comments provided during
> RTGWG meeting in Yokohama.
> There are already too many, we need to rationalize this work.
> 
> This is what has been discussed in Yokohama, Robin presented
> 
> -- draft-li-rtgwg-utunnel-yang
>    -- draft-li-rtgwg-tunnel-policy-yang
>    -- draft-wwz-netmod-yang-tunnel-cfg
>    -- draft-zheng-intarea-gre-yang
>    -- draft-liu-intarea-gre-tunnel-yang
>    -- draft-liu-intarea-ipipv4-tunnel-yang
> 
> Cheers,
> Jeff
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/23/15, 11:56, "i2rs on behalf of Acee Lindem (acee)"
> <[e-mail] on behalf of [e-mail]> wrote:
> 
> >Hi Mach,
> >
> >I’m looking at draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-data-model-04.txt and it still
> >includes all the tunnel encaps. I know you received several comments
> >that those should be in the tunnel model(s) and this I2RS RIB model
> >should merely reference an imported tunnel abstraction. How are you
> >going to address this? It seemed that the consensus (and an opinion
> >that I share) was that this model should not attempt to generically
> >created tunnels via RIB/FIB entries.
> >Thanks,
> >Acee
> >
> >On 11/23/15, 2:23 AM, "i2rs on behalf of Mach Chen"
> ><[e-mail] on behalf of [e-mail]> wrote:
> >
> >>Hi,
> >>
> >>We just uploaded an update that addresses the comments received
> >>(include online and offline) recently. Please review the draft and comment!
> >>
> >>Thanks,
> >>Mach
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: i2rs [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of
> >>>[e-mail]
> >>> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 3:16 PM
> >>> To: [e-mail]
> >>> Cc: [e-mail]
> >>> Subject: [i2rs] I-D Action: draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-data-model-04.txt
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> >>>directories.
> >>>  This draft is a work item of the Interface to the Routing System
> >>>Working Group  of the IETF.
> >>>
> >>>         Title           : A YANG Data Model for Routing
> Information
> >>>Base
> >>> (RIB)
> >>>         Authors         : Lixing Wang
> >>>                           Hariharan Ananthakrishnan
> >>>                           Mach(Guoyi) Chen
> >>>                           Amit Dass
> >>>                           Sriganesh Kini
> >>>                           Nitin Bahadur
> >>>        Filename        : draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-data-model-04.txt
> >>>        Pages           : 65
> >>>        Date            : 2015-11-22
> >>>
> >>> Abstract:
> >>>    This document defines a YANG data model for Routing Information
> >>>Base
> >>>    (RIB) that aligns with the I2RS RIB information model.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-data-model/
> >>>
> >>> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-data-model-04
> >>>
> >>> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-data-model-04
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> >>>submission  until the htmlized version and diff are available at
> >>>tools.ietf.org.
> >>>
> >>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> >>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> i2rs mailing list
> >>> [e-mail]
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> >>
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