Re: [Iasa20] Ballot positions on draft-ietf-iasa2-rfc7437bis
Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org> Mon, 08 July 2019 14:43 UTC
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From: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 10:43:07 -0400
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To: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>
Cc: IASA 2 WG <iasa20@ietf.org>, Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, Brian Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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Subject: Re: [Iasa20] Ballot positions on draft-ietf-iasa2-rfc7437bis
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> Doesn’t it count for something that this document was approved by an earlier IESG in 2014? You're being disingenuous. THIS document was never put before the IESG before. The draft that became RFC 7437 was, but that was a different document. Today, we're being asked to review draft-ietf-iasa2-rfc7437bis, not draft-kucherawy-rfc3777bis. Now, first, it would have been nice to have been alerted that a thorough editorial review was not welcome *before* the document was put on the telechat agenda and a ballot was opened. I spent a few hours working on it and being thorough, and would liked to have not wasted my time on things that will be ignored. Second, the working group charter says this: Aside from instances where they presently relate to IASA, it is outside the scope of this working group to consider any changes to anything related to the oversight or steering of the standards process as currently conducted by the IESG and IAB, the appeal chain, the confirming bodies for existing IETF and IAB appointments, the IRTF, or ISOC's memberships in other organizations. I see a huge difference between not considering changes to the process (and oversight and steering)... and not considering editorial changes that correct or clarify existing text. Clearly, not everyone agrees with me on that, but it's part of the job to which I've been appointed to review documents for correctness and clarity, and to call out areas where I think the documents fail. I'll note, for example, that in the text I've been trying to get discussed, in Section 3.8, this document -- THIS document -- already makes changes to what was in 7437, some of which were not required for the IASA2 changes. It changes "nominating committee" to "NomCom" (why does that relate to IASA2?) and merges bullets 3 and 4 from the original. I'm not suggesting that those changes should not have been made, nor that they caused the issue I'm questioning. I'm only saying that we're already not being rigorous about limiting text changes to those absolutely necessary. So let's get some perspective here. > In my view, this behavior from ADs does not add to the overall quality of the IETFs work, > it just makes more work for everyone and slows everything down. Is it your view that if an error is missed once, we're stuck with it forever? Am I really not adding to overall quality by asking for clarity in text that I think simply doesn't work as written? I could be wrong when I say the text appears to be broken, but we're not having a real discussion about it, so I wouldn't know. Maybe it's attempts to deflect discussions, rather than actually have them and resolve the issues, that makes more work for everyone and slows everything down. I am not trying to block this document; quite the opposite: I think it's a critically important document, and I'm helping to make sure it's clear and correct in what it's saying. I don't want to make changes to the process here. I want to make sure there isn't something that, when something comes up that sends us to it, isn't clearly understandable. > p.s. As the document editor, I will make the changes need to move this forward once I get direction from the w.g. chairs. I have a large number of comments that are editorial, and which are not in the DISCUSS group. Some of those are important, and some directly relate to errors in the text about IASA2 issues. Please make sure you go through those and incorporate at least those in the latter group, along with any others that seem important enough to include. Barry
- [Iasa20] Ballot positions on draft-ietf-iasa2-rfc… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Iasa20] Ballot positions on draft-ietf-iasa2… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Iasa20] Ballot positions on draft-ietf-iasa2… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Iasa20] Ballot positions on draft-ietf-iasa2… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Iasa20] Ballot positions on draft-ietf-iasa2… John C Klensin
- Re: [Iasa20] Ballot positions on draft-ietf-iasa2… Warren Kumari
- Re: [Iasa20] Ballot positions on draft-ietf-iasa2… Warren Kumari
- Re: [Iasa20] Ballot positions on draft-ietf-iasa2… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Iasa20] Ballot positions on draft-ietf-iasa2… Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
- Re: [Iasa20] Ballot positions on draft-ietf-iasa2… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Iasa20] Ballot positions on draft-ietf-iasa2… John C Klensin
- Re: [Iasa20] Ballot positions on draft-ietf-iasa2… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Iasa20] Ballot positions on draft-ietf-iasa2… Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
- Re: [Iasa20] Ballot positions on draft-ietf-iasa2… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Iasa20] Ballot positions on draft-ietf-iasa2… Barry Leiba
- Re: [Iasa20] Ballot positions on draft-ietf-iasa2… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Iasa20] Ballot positions on draft-ietf-iasa2… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Iasa20] Ballot positions on draft-ietf-iasa2… Barry Leiba
- Re: [Iasa20] Ballot positions on draft-ietf-iasa2… Barry Leiba
- Re: [Iasa20] Ballot positions on draft-ietf-iasa2… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Iasa20] Ballot positions on draft-ietf-iasa2… Warren Kumari