[Ietf-languages] Latin Sub tags

Hugh Paterson III <sil.linguist@gmail.com> Wed, 29 November 2023 20:07 UTC

Return-Path: <sil.linguist@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: ietf-languages@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf-languages@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91B78C151539 for <ietf-languages@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 29 Nov 2023 12:07:08 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.439
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.439 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7eC9l2EK4BzP for <ietf-languages@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 29 Nov 2023 12:07:04 -0800 (PST)
Received: from out.mail.icann.org (out.mail.icann.org [64.78.33.7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF214C15108A for <ietf-languages@ietf.org>; Wed, 29 Nov 2023 12:07:04 -0800 (PST)
Received: from MBX112-W2-CO-1.pexch112.icann.org (10.226.41.128) by MBX112-E2-CO-1.pexch112.icann.org (10.226.41.200) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.1258.27; Wed, 29 Nov 2023 12:07:03 -0800
Received: from aesmt112-co-1-1.serverpod.net (10.224.74.75) by MBX112-W2-CO-1.pexch112.icann.org (10.226.41.129) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.1258.27 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 29 Nov 2023 12:07:03 -0800
Received: from aesc112-co-1-2.serverpod.net (aesc112-co-1-2.serverpod.net [10.224.76.91]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by aesmt112-co-1.serverpod.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0B7440003 for <ietf-languages@ex.icann.org>; Wed, 29 Nov 2023 12:07:03 -0800 (PST)
Received: from exmx112-co-1-2.serverpod.net (exmx112-co-1-2.serverpod.net [10.224.72.74]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by aesmt112-co-1.serverpod.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C62E40002 for <ietf-languages@ex.icann.org>; Wed, 29 Nov 2023 12:07:03 -0800 (PST)
Received: from pechora5.dc.icann.org (pechora5.icann.org [192.0.46.71]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by west.smtp.mx.icann.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 722A8140002 for <ietf-languages@ex.icann.org>; Wed, 29 Nov 2023 12:07:03 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-ej1-x630.google.com (mail-ej1-x630.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::630]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by pechora5.dc.icann.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 427BA700037F for <ietf-languages@iana.org>; Wed, 29 Nov 2023 20:07:02 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by mail-ej1-x630.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-a013d22effcso21961466b.2 for <ietf-languages@iana.org>; Wed, 29 Nov 2023 12:07:02 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1701288420; x=1701893220; darn=iana.org; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=gbynyTyW24L/vxShCOZOJ93d1UdR8DYAiharzuuPMEQ=; b=PZKK1+xHifwa8+MxPSrNp8YsxB+kI67O3hIw3IL38Fl7TPvt1Gw15tor5S/Tc27HQ1 amzvpDznM8Z073oHz/3nt6rW0AtrPijcHq32a95nVxAoQ/ZTbyYkJOxrsFjadteebaca HFBiEj4eIght3kDUBjRJju+v1KKOt2UEOcsN13OrGOv3XzPy6z1J5tsu6hyCDlxRVNPt +CF9izuFasa4scM3DXvFpigt0jedAr9sBDZxrIW/G+AL4+FxAFV9zs3qLeT43kdolfqi H9WYGaf/t6RqskDiXBI0VN/F18Tys3DB/NrGYYby5smbHc2Lt/ceTfr5DQVcBUE1PVDH zDig==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1701288420; x=1701893220; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=gbynyTyW24L/vxShCOZOJ93d1UdR8DYAiharzuuPMEQ=; b=VP73aVjySRW/waCHAE+FBc405NSACYo92PV/bTqrAH1F2fjDkI8Ag4vQkpXZuwcY61 Yy40t/g1pWsRfDZK361McBx5u1tjKsOY/bl7G2xJSsigtHRAQAXzrZif+8NgmW411Evr /9JZWArBd82aOnLU0MYsdBjuynneh1480i9XOhNGEF9eeS47917TCgFlAYnKK7SLZ2Vb /4n38rB7WIW6gklcSeGEDsosTc3B4Li5jbohSNWldjhl0tiNj1SOPbSRwF9WwsB7dBUV 1zVRFg6vwMEPoZWxixUogEJuzYGd4/xZi9XuBmF263A8vjOyLtIdP879mqa84oQrwbMq oM+g==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxONNvDQLIMFifYDEIgD8soqBlLjmB/WOE3gXZ5VDRKB7f2FuIm l8g+Gtkd8xbZmYpbFhB89Hf9wkZFtgvlzh8wsjsKRwCnCNg=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFl/q4iA0PDjro3bq+58t048l/y1FiuplY5onBx/Nqk3iISZkBFkWHPTiZdp72J7PFzAeIo0m6SHDMR1VTKqcw=
X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:2b52:b0:9dd:9380:bb15 with SMTP id b18-20020a1709062b5200b009dd9380bb15mr13651118ejg.50.1701288420270; Wed, 29 Nov 2023 12:07:00 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
From: Hugh Paterson III <sil.linguist@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2023 12:06:48 -0800
Message-ID: <CAE=3Ky-swzNn1hXba=muJF_radLugdKxhJ=u-_DcLiysDbothw@mail.gmail.com>
To: IETF Languages Discussion <ietf-languages@iana.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f3669e060b50135d"
X-CMAE-Score: 0
X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=a9IjSGeF c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=656799e7 a=SRSNG2tq5TuPtBd2c0+Vew==:117 a=SRSNG2tq5TuPtBd2c0+Vew==:17 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10 a=BNY50KLci1gA:10 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=7MiK3HiER0sA:10 a=5k6HccHfAAAA:8 a=f7QuZRfqI_Dl93udSB4A:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Jl-tDQJIKy545Nxjw7gA:9 a=jVOm-KE88hTbpNH2:21 a=BukB40I6FuKppiBORtFA:22 a=vexicnJHVZC5-rvN4z9Y:22
X-SOURCE-IP: 192.0.46.71
X-SPF-STATUS: soft_fail
X-SPF-FROM-STATUS: not_checked
X-RDNS-STATUS: pass
X-HELO-STRING: pechora5.dc.icann.org
Spam-Stopper-Id: 8b4f7cd7-9e12-4e25-832d-5b08ea1098d3
Spam-Stopper-v2: Yes
X-Envelope-Mail-From: sil.linguist@gmail.com
X-AES-Category: LEGIT
X-Spam-Category: None
X-Spam-Reasons: None
X-AES-Analytics-Data: eyJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOiAiMjAyMy0xMS0yOVQyMDowNzowMy43MDlaIiwgIm1lc3NhZ2VUcmFja2luZyI6IHsiaGFuZGxpbmciOiBbIlRISVJEIFBBUlRZIEJZUEFTUyJdLCAidW5pZmllZENhdGVnb3J5IjogIlVOQ0FURUdPUklTRUQifSwgImVuZ2luZXMiOiB7fX0=
X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, OOF, AutoReply
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-languages/lf_jgqm323CGVAQvdsjovAA08mQ>
Subject: [Ietf-languages] Latin Sub tags
X-BeenThere: ietf-languages@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Review of requests for language tag registration according to BCP 47 \(RFC 4646\)" <ietf-languages.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf-languages>, <mailto:ietf-languages-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf-languages/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf-languages@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-languages-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages>, <mailto:ietf-languages-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2023 20:07:08 -0000

Greetings,

Has there been any discussion (historical context) for indicating
varieties of Latin [https://iso639-3.sil.org/code/lat]?

Specifically though I am curious about the conceptual entities such as
Early Latin, Classical Latin, and Medieval Latin. These three eras are
well attested in Latin oriented scholarly literature. Has there ever
been a request for sub-tags for these? If so, why were they denied?


In BCP-47 Latin would be indicated using ISO639-1 code [la]. So I
searched for variant codes with a prefix with the value of [la].
Nothing was found for Early Latin, Classical Latin, or Medieval Latin.


In considering an application for these three varieties of Latin, the
time-depth boundaries for these three "varieties" are contested,
therefore I don't think that a variant tag relating to a time frame is
especially neutral or clear.

Is there anyone on this list who would consider Early Latin, Classical
Latin, or Medieval Latin to be separate languages?

Some languages such as Greek have separate ISO639-3 codes for
different time depths: e.g., [ell] and [grc]. My understanding is that
this time based split was introduced to ISO639-3 via compatibility
requirements with ISO639-2 and time depth indication via ISO639-3 is
not a viable way to argue for the introduction of a "new language"
code to ISO639-3. (It would be nice if the ISO639-3 registrar or other
knowledgeable person could comment on this aspect.) Additionally, the
ISO639-2 registrar could be approached to add these as "languages" --
there is sufficient publishing in these "languages" to meet the
guideline ISO639-2 requirements. The result being that they would be
de facto introduced to the ISO639-3 set of codes. However, I'm not at
all sure that pathway really solves any long term goals for indication
of time depths. (Is the ISO639-2 registrar on this list?)


I note Exhibit 1 from the registry. However its comment seems to
indicate that this is an auxiliary language -- a language -- I
emphasise. My general understanding of variant tags which have a
prefix is that they are not languages but variants of a language. So I
question the clarity of the wording of the comment. Maybe I need to
refine my understanding, or maybe I am not fully understanding what an
'auxiliary language' is.


Kind regards,

Hugh

Exhibit 1

%%
Type: variant
Subtag: peano
Description: Latino Sine Flexione
Description: Interlingua de API
Description: Interlingua de Peano
Prefix: la
Comments: Peano’s Interlingua, created in 1903 by Giuseppe Peano as an
  international auxiliary language
Added: 2020-03-12
%%