Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Received header
Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@gmail.com> Tue, 01 April 2014 16:47 UTC
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References: <20140330151432.2721.qmail@joyce.lan> <A3DE810811F791EDC532BDFB@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <m28urr9rcp.wl%randy@psg.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 12:47:36 -0400
Message-ID: <CAMm+LwiE_U2jY8xkdUCNxACaTVM6h8i-Xh1PnK_PC-QvRLkyCw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Received header
From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@gmail.com>
To: Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>
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Cc: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>, IETF Discussion Mailing List <ietf@ietf.org>
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If you need to do manual debugging daily then you are not engaged in debugging, you have a protocol that depends on manual intervention. That is an architectural defect. I understand your pain, what I don't understand is why you tolerate it or my business model for mitigating your problem. I have no qualms about telling people that their 'requirement' to run infrastructure obsolete twenty years is not a requirement I recognize. The bar for justifying MUST requirements should be very high. They certainly should not become a mechanism for people to defer the cost of upgrading their infrastructure onto the rest of us. "Running a relay" is not a properly stated requirement. What is this relay for? If it is for gating X.400 or DECNET mail then my response would be more or less 'not only do I reject your requirement, I would if it were legal and expeditious to do so personally go to the system in question and reprogram it with a very large axe'. The privacy concerns for running different types of gateway/relay/mailing list are all very different. Simply stating they are essential does not persuade me. Every time a message passes through a relay it is because either the sender has configured their mail to do that or the receiver has configured their mail to do use it. So the privacy concerns are very different for those hops to the concerns that arise when the sender hands a message over to the receiver. The reason the privacy concerns come up is that the relay has no idea what role it is forwarding the message under, whether it is acting for the sender or the receiver. On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 7:52 PM, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote: > the day was weird enough already without my having to agree with an > entire, typically long, jck posting :) > > the truth is, i have not used received: headers to authenticate/debug > [0] since yesterday. but it's not yet 09:00, so there is still time > today. > > randy > > --- > > [0] - from an ops pov, loop detection, lists subscribing to eachother, > and all that stuff is debugging. > > -- Website: http://hallambaker.com/
- SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Received he… Kevin M. Gallagher
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… Randy Bush
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… Dave Cridland
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… Eliot Lear
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… Ted Lemon
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… Dave Aronson
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… David Morris
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… John Levine
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… Dale R. Worley
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… Dave Crocker
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… Scott Brim
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… Hector Santos
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… Hector Santos
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… David Morris
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… Ted Lemon
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… John Levine
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… Dick Franks
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… Hector Santos
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… Hector Santos
- RE: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… Christian Huitema
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… John Levine
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… John C Klensin
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… John C Klensin
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… Randy Bush
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… Randy Bush
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… Ted Lemon
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… John Levine
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… John Levine
- Re[2]: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Rece… mohammed serrhini
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… Dave Crocker
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… John C Klensin
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… Dave Cridland
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… Hector Santos
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… Michael Richardson
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… John C Klensin
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… John C Klensin
- Mail System Reliability [was: Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST… Hector Santos
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: SMTP RFC: "MUST NOT" change or delete Receive… Murray S. Kucherawy