Re: draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE: Review of draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-09)
Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> Tue, 11 April 2017 18:34 UTC
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Subject: Re: draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE: Review of draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-09)
To: Dave Dolson <ddolson@sandvine.com>, "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>
References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009E4B818@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <11843452-d76d-50e3-c162-155f4d1621e2@cs.tcd.ie> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009E4B953@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <20170411120303.5128273.2297.7062@sandvine.com>
Cc: "draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits@tools.ietf.org" <draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits@tools.ietf.org>
From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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On 11/04/17 13:03, Dave Dolson wrote: > Regarding "benefits", these devices clearly have perceived benefits I do not agree that the IETF ought described perceived benefits as if the claimed benefits accrue as hoped for. That is far too close to marketing. In a contentious case like this, I can see why someone may feel that's useful as a form of balance or part of a larger debate, but in the end I think we need to step back and take an engineering approach. S > to those who deploy them. My view is that the document should explain > that perspective for readers who lack the operator perspective. The > intent was not to mandate or recommend deployments. > > David Dolson ‎ Original Message From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2017 7:48 AM To: Stephen Farrell; Martin > Thomson; ietf@ietf.org Cc: > draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits@tools.ietf.org Subject: RE: > draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE: Review of > draft-mm-wg-effect-encrypt-09) > > > Hi Stephen, > > Please see inline. > > Cheers, Med > >> -----Message d'origine----- De : Stephen Farrell >> [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] Envoyé : mardi 11 avril 2017 >> 10:51 À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Martin Thomson; >> ietf@ietf.org Cc : >> draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits@tools.ietf.org Objet : Re: >> draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE: Review of draft- >> mm-wg-effect-encrypt-09) >> >> >> Hi Med, >> >> On 11/04/17 09:15, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >>>> I hope that the IETF never publishes >>>> draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits; it makes claims about >>>> the benefits of specific solutions for different use cases with >>>> the goal of justifying those solutions. >> >>> [Med] I'm afraid this is speculating about the intent of >>> draft-dolson. Assured this is not the purpose of that document. >>> The motivation is to document current practices without including >>> any recommendation or claiming these solutions are superior to >>> others. >> >> Just to note that I completely agree with Martin's interpretation >> of the thrust of this draft and I totally fail to see how your >> argument above can be justified given that draft title, abstract >> and even filename (and also the content;-). > > [Med] "beneficial" is derived from the initial request that motivated > this draft (excerpt from the abstract): > > At IETF97, at a meeting regarding the Path Layer UDP Substrate > (PLUS) protocol, a request was made for documentation about the > benefits ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > that might be provided by permitting middleboxes to have some > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > visibility to transport-layer information. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > When the abstract >> says "This document summarizes benefits" then I cannot interpret >> that as other than being intended to justify the uses described. > > [Med] I would prefer if we can avoid to "interpret", but raise > questions to the authors if there is a doubt. The document does not > provide a recommendation or claims this is the only way to achieve > the technical goals. It does only reflect some deployment reality > together with some motivations. > >> >> A fairly thorough re-write to aim to describe the pros and cons >> would be a different and more useful document. > > [Med] There are already many RFCs that discuss the issues/cons (I can > cite this RFC I co-authored https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6269 for > the CGN case). What is needed IMHO is something else: understand the > requirements that led to deploy some of these functions. > > Similarly a draft >> that strives to neutrally describe existing reality could maybe be >> useful (*) > > [Med] This is the intent of draft-dolson. > > but one that only describes middlebox friends with >> "benefits" is not IMO beneficial ;-) > > [Med] The intent is not to "sell something" but to understand the > technical needs so that hopefully we can have a reference for future > solution-oriented discussions. If a given function can be provided > without involving an on-path device, this would be great for > operators (optimize CAPEX/OPEX is our motto). > >> >> Cheers, S. >> >> (*) That is the argument for draft-mm-effect-encrypt, for which I >> do support publication (apparently in disagreement with Martin in >> that case:-) >> >> >> >
- RE: draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE:… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE:… Stephen Farrell
- draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE: Rev… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE:… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE:… Dave Dolson
- Re: draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE:… Nico Williams
- Re: draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE:… Stephen Farrell
- Re: draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE:… Stephen Farrell
- Re: draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE:… Melinda Shore
- Re: draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE:… Nico Williams
- Re: draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE:… Nick Hilliard
- Re: draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE:… Eggert, Lars
- Re: draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE:… Jeff Tantsura
- Re: draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE:… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE:… Stephen Farrell
- RE: draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE:… mohamed.boucadair
- RE: draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE:… mohamed.boucadair
- RE: draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE:… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE:… Mirja Kühlewind
- RE: draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE:… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE:… Mirja Kühlewind
- RE: draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE:… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE:… Matthew Ford
- Re: draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE:… Mirja Kühlewind
- Re: draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE:… Stephen Farrell
- Re: draft-dolson-plus-middlebox-benefits (was RE:… Martin Thomson