Re: Please welcome the facilitators at ietf@ietf.org

Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@gmail.com> Wed, 09 November 2016 23:02 UTC

Return-Path: <melinda.shore@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A0E312954C for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 9 Nov 2016 15:02:03 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HqXkpAr0T9lE for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 9 Nov 2016 15:02:01 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-pf0-x229.google.com (mail-pf0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49DE3129858 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 9 Nov 2016 15:02:01 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-pf0-x229.google.com with SMTP id n85so133964935pfi.1 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Wed, 09 Nov 2016 15:02:01 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to; bh=OYH0QfkrXv/IEksRR9qE2eFaEmdJt0tSScV25X2IyDQ=; b=olR8cPbWozN0vwuh/7SxxxPz1Cp/PW0mf9Mci69LOhH9Sz8Cd9AK9pMfjTzif3VWg8 tx8VDtFtYiqYP8YPPtZjaLoaSUHCgxLa42CQKhtKQk6Xyv4kdXGVz3j0ecupjqlx73cW /ioz4eNagkN2PiyCWA+LdezaJOxCCdfb0IbxXTWKpCAT1yb7mFjmTqzjM/0usjowx6yk 8uL14zaPmFp4GkdR58OI3SocqO2nPLkI9lcvj73GtexzwMEsirXKu9B9FK+/TQyJVBNm hY8AX+FNnbBtuVnm/h8mNtmJrbAS2nr4Kq/cjnmp+2hbTQB3dZa1gLGNfkzI5gd4nbwt HBYQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=OYH0QfkrXv/IEksRR9qE2eFaEmdJt0tSScV25X2IyDQ=; b=MeYkPVpncnfRccXQSccqX8E9nFmWJ0mW4jN2rWOitdoHS77kSINkeoYpwdue+9ByF8 vMjbWzSgpx8dwwWQwprKeKs2JxNvXRik/yFc2CJ23KEPw2zZhWNlkjpdrxgcNr1B41FY WZepwEuEmtwGDRNRpA7i5LV0Ha/jPqqef/HKDpV1DrTaXvGM36krdY/w7QJTnxZwK1Ay BFXv7l+5+7c7PvjSE2PndPIJd8pELo3Gm6tciDAC13vgEFjCl0I0f39qutMQoQJ52tUB SGs9HZ1TGEhYmpPp17a0mxDfsR8fZoDqeMozdyBsv+Mq/lwhHHxDO7BzzLHuoMYf5V7B VImw==
X-Gm-Message-State: ABUngvdorrKpkxB+rurnTG8+4opotjKRjhJb3xzODSWb2oLRVbPepHQhhp3yLOrO0uJdCg==
X-Received: by 10.99.112.65 with SMTP id a1mr30924904pgn.31.1478732520572; Wed, 09 Nov 2016 15:02:00 -0800 (PST)
Received: from Melindas-MacBook-Pro.local (209-112-136-198-radius.dynamic.acsalaska.net. [209.112.136.198]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id j63sm1645442pfj.70.2016.11.09.15.01.59 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 09 Nov 2016 15:02:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Please welcome the facilitators at ietf@ietf.org
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, ietf@ietf.org
References: <29F4A6D4-AD5B-4409-9EDA-D8761DE243CE@ietf.org> <6.2.5.6.2.20161109103948.0b6fe0e0@resistor.net> <d331dca8-6ebb-5545-9f7f-7b9e272b49c4@gmail.com> <6f968672-fc4f-1372-d4bb-eeeb4131fef0@gmail.com>
From: Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <88a666a8-cb7a-ca74-9866-0b84e8113cc0@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 14:01:57 -0900
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <6f968672-fc4f-1372-d4bb-eeeb4131fef0@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="8ciw9sT3MWCtJEbdECgfMcs4FdN4Pt61l"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/Dvf8V_bokQ1ZigEOBBQNPQ-fu-I>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2016 23:02:03 -0000

On 11/9/16 1:53 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> On 10/11/2016 08:24, Melinda Shore wrote:
>> The experiment appears to have had minimal impact.  It's perhaps
>> most helpful to consider the role of the facilitators during the
>> lengthy and occasionally acrimonious Singapore discussion, where
>> facilitation was unhelpful.
> Which I don't think is intended as criticism of the facilitators, but
> rather of ... human nature?

Yes, exactly, and apologies if I implied otherwise.

> I think it's only more Chair-like interventions (summarise opinions
> and suggest a possible way forward) that will work in such cases.

The facilitators did post summaries.  I don't think that was
actually helpful, divorced as it was from some sort of actual
facilitation/moderation process.  It looked like a lot of work
for the facilitators (for which, btw, a belated "thank you") and
for that level of effort I think we'd hope for something that
moved the discussion forward a bit more actively.

Melinda