RE: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.txt> (Pervasive Monitoring is an Attack) to Best Current Practice
<l.wood@surrey.ac.uk> Wed, 01 January 2014 23:07 UTC
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From: l.wood@surrey.ac.uk
To: tbray@textuality.com, lear@lear.ch
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2014 23:07:45 +0000
Subject: RE: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.txt> (Pervasive Monitoring is an Attack) to Best Current Practice
Thread-Topic: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.txt> (Pervasive Monitoring is an Attack) to Best Current Practice
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References: <20131203174852.21387.26099.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <A3B306E3-846C-45BA-8ED9-13B96AA645A3@piuha.net> <002501cef266$b0b8a540$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <52A23B16.4060306@gmail.com> <CC5864F92767060505B97E0A@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <52A8D6C4.2050006@cs.tcd.ie> <55026AF53DB6CBD3D29B2040@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <52C35FFD.607@dcrocker.net> <00cb01cf06dc$c6d7d8c0$54878a40$@riw.us> <m2ob3vpoji.wl%randy@psg.com>, <CAHBU6iuyMiLcRNS1Oc0xkZ=Rd2WoquE9b8fxexvO3QyJub26nQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Actually, no, similar holdups do not occur for concerns of error-handling. Examples: in DTNRG (which, though IRTF, is highly relevant, being chaired as it is by the now security AD): - LTP was developed with no error detection: RFC5326. Managed to get some shoehorned in at the last moment in the NULL bits of RFC5237, but that was not a holdup. - the bundle protocol was developed with no error detection, and no following of the end-to-end principle. That took ten years or so, a lot of researchers, a national space agency... but in DTNRG, security was paramount in the design (and focused on by the chairs). Those are the results. The judgement calls come down in favour of security concerns above all else. In the IETF: RFCs 6935 and 6936, which relax the endpoint payload and pseudoheader check by allowing zero checksums in IPv6, because tunnelled payloads with their own checks just don't need it. (That other applications do because IPv6 itself is lax on reliability checks, has no header-only check and the closest it would get to an endpoint header check would be UDP-lite, and the applications can be polluted by mis-arriving errored zero-checksum UDP packets, is neither here nor there. This is arguably the predictable outcome of some poor design decisions in IPv6 twenty years ago.) I'd welcome counterexamples where errors forced a holdup and rethink. I know of none. We're heading into a world where security is paramount, and the only reason we have any reliability in protocols at all is as a sideeffect of the security rejecting perceived attacks, and not because we actually know how to design error-rejecting protocols. (How many people here could design a CRC? How many design secure systems?) There will be no further internet engineering (which, given that 6935/6936 are proposed standards, never mind the horse-designed-by-committee IPv6 camel, may actually not be a bad thing); any internet engineering done, or any reliability obtained in implementations, will just be an unintended sideeffect of security as a discipline. Lloyd Wood http://about.me/lloydwood http://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/endtoend/endtoend.pdf ________________________________________ From: Tim Bray [tbray@textuality.com] > There are very few (any?) absolutes in any of the protocols we build, just a wealth > of often-conflicting design criteria, which force us to trade off and make judgment calls. > draft-perpass-attack says that mitigation of pervasive surveillance should be seen as > one of the design criteria, and it’s not OK to ignore it. A reasonable take is that a specification > could be held up if there are plausible arguments that this criterion has not been given appropriate > consideration, and I see nothing wrong with that. Similar hold-ups regularly occur when there are > concerns that there hasn’t been appropriate consideration for efficiency or error-handling or, well, lots of other criteria.
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… SM
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Wesley Eddy
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Wesley Eddy
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Wesley Eddy
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… t.p.
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stefan Winter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… t.p.
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… t.p.
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Scott Brim
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Scott Brim
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Mark Nottingham
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Adrian Farrel
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stefan Winter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stefan Winter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stefan Winter
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… l.wood
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… l.wood
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Josh Howlett
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… t.p.
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stefan Winter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stefan Winter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stewart Bryant
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… l.wood
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Scott Brim
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Randy Bush
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Randy Bush
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Randy Bush
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Avri Doria
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Scott Brim
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Scott Brim
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Avri Doria
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Privacy protection takes more than resolve (was R… Dave Crocker
- Re: Privacy protection takes more than resolve (w… Scott Brim
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Eliot Lear
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… l.wood
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… l.wood
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Scott Brim
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… t.p.
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stewart Bryant
- Update RFC1087 (Ethics and the Internet) [was Re:… Hector Santos
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Dale R. Worley
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Eliot Lear
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Ted Faber
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stewart Bryant
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… l.wood
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Eliot Lear
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Eliot Lear
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Pete Resnick
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Eliot Lear
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Tim Bray
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Spencer Dawkins
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Kent
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.txt> … Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Scott Brim
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Sam Hartman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Scott Brim
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Kent
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Kent
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Jari Arkko
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Ted Lemon
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… t.p.
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Joseph Lorenzo Hall
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Scott Brim
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Kent
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Kent
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Kent
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Scott Brim
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Bjoern Hoehrmann
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Michel Py
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Dave Crocker
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Abdussalam Baryun
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Russ White
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Melinda Shore
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… l.wood
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Russ White
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Yoav Nir
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Eliot Lear
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Russ White
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Dave Crocker
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Randy Bush
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Tim Bray
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Dave Crocker
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Russ White
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Melinda Shore
- Status (was: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-at… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Status Melinda Shore
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Ted Lemon
- Re: Status John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Rene Struik
- Re: Status Stephen Farrell
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Russ White
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Melinda Shore
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… l.wood
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… l.wood
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… l.wood
- Re: Status (was: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpas… Scott Brim
- Re: Status Scott Brim
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Ted Lemon
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Dave Crocker
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Melinda Shore
- Re: Status (was: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpas… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Dave Crocker
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Melinda Shore
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Michael Richardson
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… l.wood
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… t.p.
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Dave Crocker
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Scott Brim
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Ted Lemon
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Ted Lemon
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… t.p.
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Michael Richardson
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Ted Lemon
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Kent
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Dave Crocker
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Eliot Lear (elear)
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Eliot Lear (elear)
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Hector Santos
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Eric Rosen
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Ted Lemon
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Scott Brim
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Eric Rosen
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Scott Brim
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Melinda Shore
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Ted Lemon
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stewart Bryant (stbryant)
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… l.wood
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… l.wood
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Sean Turner
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- RE: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… l.wood
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Tim Bray
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Hector Santos
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Scott Brim
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Scott Brim
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stewart Bryant (stbryant)
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Scott Brim
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Melinda Shore
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Scott Brim
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Eliot Lear
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Donald Eastlake
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… ned+ietf
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Stephen Kent
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Dave Crocker
- Re: Last Call: <draft-farrell-perpass-attack-02.t… Scott Brim