Re: Vehicle's VIN in IPv6.

Jong-Hyouk Lee <> Thu, 31 March 2011 13:00 UTC

Return-Path: <>
Received: from localhost (localhost []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91AF73A6B12 for <>; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 06:00:36 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.599
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1]
Received: from ([]) by localhost ( []) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s7EBBiVgqT1o for <>; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 06:00:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ( []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E3F13A6B4F for <>; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 06:00:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by wyb29 with SMTP id 29so2241511wyb.31 for <>; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 06:02:09 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=cVUrc2nzcNdDG7+45xNN70WYhDjlrzJS/tBOjAixmoE=; b=fckTvQSRVO+2dg8Xfzmn+30WmiD9c6MLW4ViN46Ja01peITvQ91ALWs04q1bXwrm2G Ekwvd+h6E4MnIxe6jpNPznDsJgJYWzmM3JAAMjgLl52pJiT9EllwXmBu3ND8k+m16qaD jkAcMGwNQAVKJKATKc/RM/T6Bir+3plivd83w=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=blkrj2LxSsOJLbKfxLfXmI5Mjf1svCAxJnGaNORZ0nFsLrQGIRfYjUFZzCxWz8IZOT 1RtPnkHYYgPPUkUSn1oMO2o8Egigg9aeA8d49sH95VRr9168xSf3egcdaOGTdkfs2GWE Nr0UIlm2fNZ201unPAudcbQhnsAesy2obNl+4=
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by with SMTP id e21mr2592779wbu.147.1301576529078; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 06:02:09 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by with HTTP; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 06:02:08 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <>
References: <5C4A2B87ED124653A9BDEDAC14D6F2C8@sparrow> <> <> <>
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 15:02:08 +0200
Message-ID: <>
Subject: Re: Vehicle's VIN in IPv6.
From: Jong-Hyouk Lee <>
To: Behcet Sarikaya <>,
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Cc: Behcet Sarikaya <>,
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: "IPv6 Maintenance Working Group \(6man\)" <>
List-Unsubscribe: <>, <>
List-Archive: <>
List-Post: <>
List-Help: <>
List-Subscribe: <>, <>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 13:00:36 -0000

Dear all.

For Internet connectivity of vehicles, the use of IPv6 (with mobility
support, NEMO) is being fully considered at some standardization
organizations such as ISO and ETSI. But, I totally disagree with the
use of IPv6 as a permanent ID of a vehicle, i.e., VIN, because

1) This breaks the layered architecture concept.
2) This causes security issues, especially location privacy.

For, the comments from Behcet, plz see inline.

On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 2:28 PM, Behcet Sarikaya
<>; wrote:
> I think the idea here is to use VIN as link layer id when assigning an
> address/prefix to a host in the car.

The ITS station architecture being considered at ISO and ETSI defines
that a vehicle ITS station must implement at least three entities such
as the gateway, router, and host. The mobility support for Internet
connectivity, i.e., NEMO, is in the router forming the in-vehicle
network where hosts of the vehicle ITS station are attached.

So, the use of link layer ID as the VIN does not make sense.

In addition, the link layer ID for the router of vehicle is changed
frequently, e.g., randomly generated ID is used for preventing
location tracking. Even the security mechanism developed for securing
the vehicle ITS station adopts an approach of pseudonym, i.e.,
certificate not including any identical information of vehicle and
vehicle's owner and use in a given short time.


The host can provide such an id in DHCP
> request message.
> Regards,
> Behcet
>> Dear all,
>> I fail to see why a VIN would be mapped to an IPv6 address as  much as I fail
>>to see why a passport number would be mapped to an IPv6 number.  As said by
>>Scott, the purpose of the IP address is to forward packets to the  destination.
>> Such an idea is going against location privacy. To address  the location
>>privacy issue related to the ID of the vehicle used at the  networking layer,
>>the Car-to-Car Communication Consortium propose to use  pseudonyms; when it goes
>>to IPv6 communications (all communications are not  IP-based) this pseudonym is
>>used to configure an IPv6 address, i.e. a transient  address (you can check the
>>work of the SeVeCom project). In the meantime, the  vehicle also has a permanent
>>address (indeed, prefix) as which the vehicle is  reachable (using NEMO). Up to
>>now, there is no one in any of the standardisation  or consortium I know (ETSI
>>TC ITS, ISO TC204, ISO TC22, CEN TC278, Car2Car  Communication Consortium) who
>>is thinking about mapping a vehicle ID to the IPv6  address.
>> So, I'm afraid this idea is going  nowhere.
>> Regards,
>> Thierry Ernst.
>> On 31/03/11 10:40, Scott Brim  wrote:
>> > Hello Radek.
>> >
>> > I have privacy concerns, because  the VIN is permanent for the vehicle.
>> >   I suspect there is a good  chance that the vehicle's IP address will
>> > not be used just for  diagnostics, but also for general purpose
>> > connections to the Internet  (for example fetching a movie for the
>> > children).  If an IP address  is based on VIN, then it will never
>> > change, ever.  It will be  possible for observers to build up
>> > information about what the vehicle's  users like to connect to.
>> >
>> > Also, if you are a diagnostic center  and you receive packets from an
>> > IP address claiming to have a particular  VIN number, how do you
>> > authenticate it?  How do you know that is  really the vehicle it claims
>> > to be?  You will need application  layer authentication in any case.
>> >
>> > I believe it would be much  better to decouple "vehicle identification"
>> > from "IP layer location"  (the IP address).  These tokens have
>> > different purposes.  The  vehicle identification is for use with
>> > database applications and  diagnostic applications, while the IP
>> > address is for IP forwarding to  know how to reach the vehicle.  You
>> > could possibly allow the  vehicle to connect to the network and get any
>> > IP address -- any address  at all -- and then connect to the diagnostic
>> > center and tell you its VIN  and authenticate, all in a higher layer
>> > protocol.
>> >
>> >  2011/3/30 Radek Wróbel<>;:
>> >>  Dear 6man!
>> >> My name is Radek Wrobel, I'm writing from Poland (I'm  working in Wroclaw
>> >> University of Technology, Division of Car  Vehicles and Combustion
>> >> Engines). With this idea I wrote to IANA and  Leo Vegoda redirected me to
>> >> you.
>> >> Vehicle / mechanic  engineers are working on a new On Board Diagnosis
>> >> standard for  vehicles (
>> >> Today  EOBDv1 can diagnose (quasi online) 849 failures. One of most
>> >> advantage of EOBDv2 (but not only it) will be constant,  real time
>> >> communication with service. The best way of them will be  indyvidual number
>> >> for every car vehicles in the world. This number  ought to cooporate with
>> >> global networking - TCP/IP (IPv6). All cars  have indyvidual number - VIN
>> >> (17 characters which indicates on a  country of production  and mark of the
>> >> car: digits and letters  A-X). Maybe there is time when someone must think
>> >> about conversion  VIN to IPv6 (like it's in local IPv4)? I've a few ideas
>> >> about it and  of course I can share them if you will be intersting in.
>> >> Also we  cooperate with VW and Toyota. I think they will be interesting
>> >>  it too.
>> >> Best regards, Radek Wrobel.
>> >>  +48660406004
>> >>
>> >>  --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>  IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> >>
>> >> Administrative  Requests:
>> >>  --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >>
>> >  --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >  IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> >
>> > Administrative Requests:
>> >  --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> Administrative Requests:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------

IMARA Team, INRIA, France.
Jong-Hyouk Lee.

#email: jonghyouk (at) gmail (dot) com || jong-hyouk.lee (at) inria (dot) fr