[Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ietf-emailcore-as-28 ietf last call Secdir review
Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> Sat, 02 May 2026 21:06 UTC
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Date: Sat, 02 May 2026 16:05:12 -0500
From: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
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References: <177735548849.818.15891659530280505461@dt-datatracker-b45949c58-t72jx> <CAL02cgTFzt9JWqjCaeJvjprw7A-CVxSsuACcGeq+5v2HswLisg@mail.gmail.com> <afLDxbSmB-EhfvfZ@chardros.imrryr.org> <593710E3-F462-49DF-AE9A-0EAB8F984851@episteme.net> <CABcZeBOCZ0COccyTHWRgJ3JGGtwC+N63742J1ak2=wOfzqeCZA@mail.gmail.com> <D6470493-E87E-409B-8F2B-C7635E3B7AEF@episteme.net> <CABcZeBMuTZc83NJeS+GS2K__EMUiAdnp71ix4x6a=aKtzDAOgA@mail.gmail.com> <DCA5D233-573B-4406-BD15-5CD3CD2BA5E4@episteme.net> <CABcZeBP2X+Tb8bRuSm-Jc-wQ=Fxza5J636QOHufqyr8je+UnAw@mail.gmail.com>
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CC: Pete Resnick <resnick@episteme.net>, emailcore@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org
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Subject: [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ietf-emailcore-as-28 ietf last call Secdir review
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On Sat, May 02, 2026 at 01:00:00PM -0700, Eric Rescorla wrote: > And then we have the following text from the AS: > > SMTP-receivers MUST be configurable to allow for receiving messages > without specific confidentiality mechanisms, or even without > confidentiality, between SMTP-senders and SMTP-receivers in order to > maximize interoperation and avoid refusal of legitimate messages. > While that provision is extremely important to promote delivery of > legitimate messages whenever possible, mechanisms that provide > confidentiality are still strongly preferred when they are feasible. > > I read this text as prohibiting implementations from implementing only > a mode where they, require STARTTLS prior to accepting, as Viktor > says, '"MAIL FROM", "RCPT TO" and "DATA"'. That is what I am objecting > to. Phrased in the other direction, I think we should allow > implementations to be written that only accept "MAIL FROM", etc. after > STARTTLS. I agree that the I-D does just that. The I-D does not specify a protocol. It specifies an applicability statement with less than universal applicability -- it may not apply to your use case. Moreover, the reasons given (long tail, etc) are solid, but you will not respond. By all rights your view must be in the rough until you elect to respond. Nico --
- [Last-Call] draft-ietf-emailcore-as-28 ietf last … Shivan Sahib via Datatracker
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] draft-ietf-emailcore-… Barry Leiba
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] draft-ietf-emailcore-… Eliot Lear
- [Last-Call] Re: draft-ietf-emailcore-as-28 ietf l… S Moonesamy
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] draft-ietf-emailcore-… Eric Rescorla
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] draft-ietf-emailcore-… Eliot Lear
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] draft-ietf-emailcore-… Eric Rescorla
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] draft-ietf-emailcore-… Eliot Lear
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] draft-ietf-emailcore-… Eric Rescorla
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] draft-ietf-emailcore-… Eliot Lear
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: draft-ietf-em… Rob Sayre
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: draft… Rob Sayre
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: draft-ietf-em… John Levine
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] draft-ietf-emailcore-… Pete Resnick
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: draft… Rob Sayre
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] draft-ietf-emailcore-… Eric Rescorla
- [Last-Call] Re: [secdir] draft-ietf-emailcore-as-… Richard Barnes
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] draft-ietf-emailcore-… Pete Resnick
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: draft-ietf-emailc… John Levine
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] draft-ietf-emailcore-… Nico Williams
- [Last-Call] Re: [secdir] Re: Re: draft-ietf-email… Rob Sayre
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: draft-ietf-emailc… Martin Thomson
- [Last-Call] Re: [secdir] Re: Re: draft-ietf-email… Stephen Farrell
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: draft-ietf-emailc… Eliot Lear
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: draft-ietf-emailc… Nico Williams
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: draft-ietf-emailc… Martin Thomson
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: draft-ietf-em… Pete Resnick
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: draft-ietf-em… John R Levine
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: draft-ietf-em… Richard Barnes
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: draft-ietf-em… Nico Williams
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] draft-ietf-emailcore-… Pete Resnick
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: draft-ietf-emailc… Nico Williams
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: draft-ietf-em… Richard Barnes
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: draft… John C Klensin
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: draft-ietf-emailc… Eliot Lear
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… John C Klensin
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: draft-ietf-em… Nico Williams
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: draft… John C Klensin
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: draft… Rob Sayre
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: draft-ietf-em… Nico Williams
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: draft… Rob Sayre
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: draft-ietf-em… Ted Hardie
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: d… Rob Sayre
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: draft-ietf-em… Nico Williams
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: draft… Viktor Dukhovni
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: draft-ietf-em… Pete Resnick
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: draft-ietf-em… Christian Huitema
- [Last-Call] Re: [secdir] Re: [Emailcore] draft-ie… Salz, Rich
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: draft-iet… Viktor Dukhovni
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: draft-ietf-em… John C Klensin
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Pete Resnick
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Pete Resnick
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Rob Sayre
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Eric Rescorla
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Pete Resnick
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Paul Wouters
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Rob Sayre
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… S Moonesamy
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: draft-iet… Pete Resnick
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Rob Sayre
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Ted Lemon
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Eliot Lear
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: [secdir] draf… John C Klensin
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Ted Lemon
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Ted Lemon
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: [secdir] draf… Viktor Dukhovni
- [Last-Call] Re: the worst except for all of the o… Nico Williams
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Nico Williams
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Nico Williams
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Nico Williams
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… John Levine
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… S Moonesamy
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Nico Williams
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: the worst exc… John C Klensin
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: [secdir] draf… Andy Newton
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: [secdir] draf… Rob Sayre
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: [secdir] … Pete Resnick
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Eric Rescorla
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Pete Resnick
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Eric Rescorla
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Nico Williams
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: [secdir] … Viktor Dukhovni
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: [secdir] draf… Viktor Dukhovni
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Paul Wouters
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: R… John Levine
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: [secdir] … Pete Resnick
- [Last-Call] Re: [secdir] draft-ietf-emailcore-as-… S Moonesamy
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Eliot Lear
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: R… John Levine
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Nico Williams
- [Last-Call] Re: the worst except for all of the o… John Levine
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: draft… Eliot Lear
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: [secdir] draf… John C Klensin
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: R… Viktor Dukhovni
- [Last-Call] Re: [secdir] draft-ietf-emailcore-as-… Richard Barnes
- [Last-Call] Re: [secdir] Re: Re: [Emailcore] Re: … Nico Williams
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: [secdir] … Rob Sayre
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Rob Sayre
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Rob Sayre
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Eric Rescorla
- [Last-Call] Re: Process point (Was: draft-ietf-em… Eric Rescorla
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] Re: Re: … John Levine
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Eric Rescorla
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Nico Williams
- [Last-Call] Re: the worst except for all of the o… Nico Williams
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: [secdir] draf… Barry Leiba
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Richard Clayton
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Pete Resnick
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: [secdir] draf… Viktor Dukhovni
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Rob Sayre
- [Last-Call] A different look (was: Re: [Emailcore… John C Klensin
- [Last-Call] Re: [secdir] draft-ietf-emailcore-as-… Nico Williams
- [Last-Call] Re: [secdir] Re: Re: draft-ietf-email… Richard Barnes
- [Last-Call] Re: [secdir] Re: [Emailcore] draft-ie… Salz, Rich
- [Last-Call] Re: A different look (was: Re: [Email… George Michaelson
- [Last-Call] Re: A different look (was: Re: [Email… S Moonesamy
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… John Levine
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Salz, Rich
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] [secdir] draft-ietf-e… Pete Resnick
- [Last-Call] Re: [secdir] draft-ietf-emailcore-as-… Salz, Rich
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Eliot Lear
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: draft-ietf-em… John R Levine
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: draft-ietf-em… Paul Wouters
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: draft-iet… Nico Williams
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: draft-iet… Nico Williams
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: draft… John C Klensin
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: draft… Martin J. Dürst
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: draft… Rob Sayre
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: draft… Nico Williams
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: draft-ietf-em… John C Klensin
- [Last-Call] Re: A different look (was: Re: [Email… Bron Gondwana
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: A different l… John Levine
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: A different look … Viktor Dukhovni
- [Last-Call] Re: A different look (was: Re: [Email… John C Klensin
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Rob Sayre
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: [secd… John Levine
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: draft… Viktor Dukhovni
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: [secdir] draf… Douglas Foster
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: [secd… Rob Sayre
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: draft-ietf-emailc… Rob Sayre
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: draft-ietf-em… John R Levine
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Rob Sayre
- [Last-Call] Re: Process point (Was: draft-ietf-em… Pete Resnick
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] draft-ietf-emailcore-… Rob Sayre
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] draft-ietf-emailcore-… Pete Resnick
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] draft-ietf-emailcore-… Martin Thomson
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: draft-ietf-emailc… John R Levine
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] draft-ietf-emailcore-… Martin Thomson
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] draft-ietf-emailcore-… Eliot Lear
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] draft-ietf-emailcore-… Martin Thomson
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: draft-ietf-emailc… Eric Rescorla
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: draft-ietf-emailc… John Levine
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: draft-ietf-emailc… Rob Sayre
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: draft-ietf-em… Pete Resnick
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: draft-ietf-emailc… Martin Thomson
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: draft-ietf-em… Nico Williams
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: draft-ietf-em… John R Levine
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: draft-ietf-em… John R Levine
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: draft-ietf-em… Eliot Lear
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: draft-ietf-em… John R Levine
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: draft-ietf-em… Nico Williams
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: draft-ietf-em… Nico Williams
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: d… Pete Resnick
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: d… Pete Resnick
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: d… Rob Sayre
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: d… Pete Resnick
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: R… Viktor Dukhovni
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: d… Richard Barnes
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re : … S Moonesamy
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re : … Richard Barnes
- [Last-Call] Re: [secdir] Re: [Emailcore] draft-ie… Ken Murchison
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: [secdir] … Rob Sayre
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Nico Williams
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: draft-iet… Bron Gondwana
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: draft-iet… Rob Sayre
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: d… Nico Williams
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: draft… John C Klensin
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: draft-ietf-emailc… Christian Huitema
- [Last-Call] Re: A different look Eliot Lear
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: [secdir] draf… John C Klensin
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Pete Resnick
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: draft-ietf-emailc… Stephen Farrell
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: draft-ietf-emailc… Eliot Lear
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: draft-ietf-emailc… Viktor Dukhovni
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: draft-ietf-emailc… Michael Richardson
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: draft-ietf-emailc… Richard Barnes
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: draft-ietf-emailc… Nico Williams
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: draft-ietf-emailc… Eric Rescorla
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: draft-ietf-emailc… Nico Williams
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: draft-ietf-emailc… Stephen Farrell
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: draft-ietf-emailc… Scott Bradner
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: draft-iet… John C Klensin
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: draft-iet… Richard Barnes
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: draft-ietf-emailc… Dave Cridland
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: R… Jeffrey Walton
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: draft-ietf-emailc… Viktor Dukhovni
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: draft-ietf-emailc… Pete Resnick
- [Last-Call] Re: [secdir] draft-ietf-emailcore-as-… S Moonesamy
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: draft-iet… Bron Gondwana
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: draft-iet… Rob Sayre
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: draft-ietf-emailc… Eliot Lear
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: R… Viktor Dukhovni
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: R… Paul Wouters
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: draft-ietf-em… Eliot Lear
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Rob Sayre
- [Last-Call] Re: [secdir] draft-ietf-emailcore-as-… Ken Murchison
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: R… John C Klensin
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: draft-ietf-em… Salz, Rich
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: draft-ietf-em… S Moonesamy
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: Re: Re: draft-iet… Martin J. Dürst
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Salz, Rich
- [Last-Call] Re: [Emailcore] Re: [secdir] draft-ie… Viktor Dukhovni
- [Last-Call] Re: draft-ietf-emailcore-as-28 ietf l… Douglas Foster