Re: [MMUSIC] [rtcweb] No Plan
Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu> Tue, 04 June 2013 17:35 UTC
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Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2013 12:07:30 -0400
From: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>
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To: Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org>
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Cc: IETF MMUSIC WG <mmusic@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] [rtcweb] No Plan
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On 6/3/13 6:17 PM, Emil Ivov wrote: [snip] >>>> I'm just pointing out that for decomposed endpoints one 5-tuple may not >>>> be enough. And the need for this might not be known a priori. One side >>>> may be ready to add another stream for some purpose, and be >>>> willing/able >>>> to use private signaling to negotiate that. But the other side may not >>>> be able to handle that stream on the same 5-tuple. That in turn may >>>> result in a need to negotiate SDP changes to establish an additional >>>> 5-tuple that can then be used for that new stream. >>> >>> I think I see ... but not completely. Could you please post an SDP offer >>> with BUNDLE and the corresponding answer? >> >> The issue can be discussed without bundle, and without detailing the O/A. > > We can certainly try. I am not sure if I am following though. Let's see: > >> Assume we have had an O/A already between X and Y, with a single (video) >> m-line, resulting in a single 5-tuple. Over this we have a single audio >> RTP stream and mediaStreamtrack. >> >> The user of X interacts with the app, indicating a desire to receive >> another video stream from Y. This causes the app to trigger the JS in Y >> to set up another mediaStreamTrack. But the camera on Y has a separate >> IP address. So it is necessary to first set up another video m-line with >> the new address on Y's end. (X's end can use its single IP address.) > > This is the part that I can't quite picture. How can Y's camera be on a > separate IP, but still appear as a regular device to Y's javascript and > still generate a regular stream track? All this with a generic browser? I'm not a browser guy, so maybe I am imagining things that are out of scope for webrtc, but maybe not. At the very least you can have an app that gateways between a browser and some non-browser device. So assume that X is a browser and Y is not. What does the app tell the browser to do so that the new stream is on a different 5-tuple? > Wouldn't it be much more likely that such a separate camera will be > controlled by a proprietary interface that is not directly related to > WebRTC? Can somebody who knows more about these things comment if this is entirely impossible for two devices accessible to the browser to be accessible only via distinct IP address/port, or if it might occur for a sufficiently sophisticated device? Thanks, Paul > If so, then the additional signalling for this camera would obviously > need to be generated by Y's javascript (i.e. not the browser). That > additional signalling can then be merged into the one from Y's browser > by Y's JS or a gateway. > > X would indeed need to handle an offer with two video m= lines at that > point, but that's because they would negotiate different 5-tuples. So > this is fine. > > Another option would be to handle the new camera with an independent > Offer/Answer that would yield a new PeerConnection. I don't know if that > works for your case but I thought I'd mention it. In this case any > additional information required for the synchronization of the two peer > connections would be exchanged in an app-specific way. > > Cheers, > Emil > > >> Once that is done the new mediaStreamTrack can be established on the new >> m-line. >> >> How does this fit into No Plan? >> >>> (This might be a good point to move this to mmusic) >> >> Done. > > Thanks, > Emil > >> >> Thanks, >> Paul >> >>> Thanks, >>> Emil >>> >>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Paul >>>>>> >>>>>>> If you'd like for that signalling to be in SDP, I >>>>>>> don't see any problem with it. However it would be best for this >>>>>>> extra >>>>>>> layer of SDP signalling to appear at either the application layer >>>>>>> or in >>>>>>> a signalling gateway (that is going to be there anyway). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Does this make sense? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Emil >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Further questions: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I presume that you expect bandwidth in the SDP to be an aggregate >>>>>>>> per-m-line, with application specific signaling for bandwidth at >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> per-RTP-stream level? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 5/29/13 2:59 PM, Emil Ivov wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hey all, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Based on many of the discussions that we've had here, as well as >>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>> others that we've had offlist, it seemed like a good idea to >>>>>>>>> investigate >>>>>>>>> a negotiation alternative that relies on SDP and Offer/Answer >>>>>>>>> just a >>>>>>>>> little bit less. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The following "no plan" draft attempts to present one such >>>>>>>>> approach: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ivov-rtcweb-noplan >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The draft relies on conventional use of SDP O/A but leaves the >>>>>>>>> intricacies of multi-source scenarios to application-specific >>>>>>>>> signalling, with potentially a little help from RTP. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hopefully, proponents of Plans A and B would find that the >>>>>>>>> interoperability requirements that concerned them can still be met >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> "no plan". Of course they would have to be addressed by >>>>>>>>> application-specific signalling and/or signalling gateways. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Comments are welcome! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>> Emil >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> rtcweb mailing list >>>>>>>> rtcweb@ietf.org >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >
- Re: [MMUSIC] [rtcweb] Translating Plan A into No … Cullen Jennings
- Re: [MMUSIC] [rtcweb] Translating Plan A into No … Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] [rtcweb] Translating Plan A into No … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [MMUSIC] [rtcweb] Translating Plan A into No … Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] [rtcweb] No Plan Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] [rtcweb] Translating Plan A into No … Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] [rtcweb] No Plan Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] [rtcweb] Translating Plan A into No … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [MMUSIC] [rtcweb] Translating Plan A into No … Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] [rtcweb] Translating Plan A into No … Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] [rtcweb] Translating Plan A into No … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [MMUSIC] [rtcweb] No Plan Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] [rtcweb] Translating Plan A into No … Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] [rtcweb] Translating Plan A into No … Enrico Marocco
- Re: [MMUSIC] [rtcweb] Translating Plan A into No … Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] [rtcweb] No Plan Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] [rtcweb] No Plan Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] [rtcweb] No Plan Emil Ivov