Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a module is needed as import-only or as implemented

Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> Mon, 02 March 2020 18:37 UTC

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References: <d3520549f06107de8939af24268f56f56683fbb0.camel@nic.cz> <CABCOCHRFQrXgGKB10B9MXbKa2vMfaY3eWaj5Sp4W0DPQ0F-pGQ@mail.gmail.com> =?utf-8?q?=3CVI1PR07MB40472B4BEFB581AEE4F7C158F0230=40VI1PR07MB4047=2Eeurpr?= =?utf-8?q?d07=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= =?utf-8?q?=3C20200107=2E143818=2E1928135118621633911=2Embj=40tail-f=2Ecom?= =?utf-8?q?=3E_=3CVI1PR07MB404773908BCA102EFBB6EE46F03F0=40VI1PR07MB4047=2Ee?= =?utf-8?q?urprd07=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= <e28ccc2b5b632d861dcdcc8b59184d1b81eb4406.camel@nic.cz> <CABCOCHQ5ps3SMfBiFatqN1R2MFbvY1WRyO9548nOZr1-GKuQ=g@mail.gmail.com> <bbc48da835fc0829dc179e89a8553095b1244677.camel@nic.cz> <CABCOCHR=qBJ=uKK29RP4ynumabeZiaWY-MM30VuG9fsQ6Rq95Q@mail.gmail.com> <940da771-440b-6e42-eaf7-12bc5626441a@cisco.com> <CABCOCHTcp=3cG1ed_3H-XtZdTUOj8O4hEq0sPjdf9d9B3yURsg@mail.gmail.com> <6c7419ed4553947cd84930c240a14cf5f91fac11.camel@nic.cz>
In-Reply-To: <6c7419ed4553947cd84930c240a14cf5f91fac11.camel@nic.cz>
From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 10:37:06 -0800
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To: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>
Cc: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, NETMOD WG <netmod@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a module is needed as import-only or as implemented
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On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 10:23 AM Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz> wrote:

> On Mon, 2020-03-02 at 09:52 -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 8:57 AM Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > Sorry to resurrect this old email thread.
> > > To me, it's an important piece of information to know that
> ietf-netconf-acm
> > > is optional to implement.
> > >
> > > It seems that we have 3 potential places where to insert this
> information
> > > 1. The associated document. We could and should insert it into the RFC
> text.
> > >     Drawback: Somehow the YANG module is looked at independently of the
> > > associated document
> > > 2. import-stmt: people on the list apparently don't like this
> > > 3. module description? What harm would it do if the description could
> > > contain this info?
> > >
> > >
> >
> > IMO it makes more sense to summarize the imported modules that need to be
> > implemented
> > and not mention the ones that are not required.  The module
> description-stmt
> > is better
> > than each import. (YANG 1.1 allows the same module to be imported
> multiple
> > times).
>
> Modules that have to be implemented can be imported only once. Adding this
> information to the import statement for such modules is IMO more effective
> than
> having it in the module description. I don't get how it could become a
> problem.
>
>
I do not think this info helps very much. It is duplicate info.
It should be in the description-stmts for the objects defined in the module.
It is also self-evident (and defined in YANG) that if you augment some
external node
you have to implement the augmented module.

 This is the classic definition of a CLR.

Lada
>

Andy


> >
> > > Regards, Benoit
> > >
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 5:44 AM Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>
> wrote:
> > > > > On Wed, 2020-01-08 at 04:49 -0800, Andy Bierman wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 1:11 AM Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>
> wrote:
> > > > > > > On Tue, 2020-01-07 at 14:29 +0000, Balázs Lengyel wrote:
> > > > > > > > If that is the consensus, I can remove the description
> statements,
> > > > > no big
> > > > > > > > deal. (I actually like the statements, but they are not
> important
> > > > > for this
> > > > > > > > draft)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Of course, it is not that important, but I don't see how this
> > > > > information
> > > > > > > could
> > > > > > > be harmful, if it is included with the import. In my view, it
> is not
> > > > > meant
> > > > > > > as a
> > > > > > > conformance requirement but just an info from the module author
> > > > > about the
> > > > > > > meaning of the import statement.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It adds a lot of extra work but more importantly the import-stmt
> is
> > > > > the wrong
> > > > > > place
> > > > >
> > > > > What work do you mean? I thought that it would be just info for
> > > > > potential
> > > > > developers (or their managers) that implementing the module
> requires
> > > > > implementing other modules and functionality - or not.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > It is duplication because the individual data-def statements should
> have
> > > > any notes
> > > > about implementation requirements. The duplication may even be wrong.
> > > > E.g., in the module it says NACM is not required, but what if some
> objects
> > > > have NACM requirements listed in the Security Considerations section?
> > > > That is the RFC section to discuss NACM requirements.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > For example, if a module imports ietf-netconf-nacm only for using
> "node-
> > > > > instance-identifier" type, it is relatively uninteresting.
> Otherwise,
> > > > > implementation of the module may just be out of question.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > to document such a complex and unrelated issue as server
> conformance
> > > > > > requirements.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > The root of this problem (and design flaw of YANG, IMO) is that
> > > > > import is
> > > > > > > "overloaded" with two different purposes, one of which
> effectively
> > > > > requires
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > the imported module be also implemented, while the other
> doesn't.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The import-stmt is only used to map a local prefix to an external
> > > > > module.
> > > > >
> > > > > But one thing is using a prefix for accessing top-level types and
> > > > > groupings
> > > > > (i.e. stuff in YANG modules), and another thing is accessing schema
> > > > > nodes, which
> > > > > have to be present in the schema tree. In complicated data models,
> it is
> > > > > not
> > > > > exactly easy to figure out all these dependencies.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I do not agree these are different things.
> > > > In both cases the prefix is used to determine the imported module
> that
> > > > contains the identifier.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > So maybe what is really overloaded are the namespace prefixes:
> they are
> > > > > used for
> > > > > addressing YANG modules, schema nodes and instances (in XPath).
> > > > >
> > > > > Lada
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Andy
> > > >
> > > > > > This proposal to add conformance info the the import-stmt would
> > > > > overload it
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > another purpose.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Not even a typedef is easy to classify  (e.g., leafref requires
> > > > > implementation
> > > > > > of a data node).
> > > > > > I certainly agree that YANG conformance is poorly specified,
> poorly
> > > > > > understood, and
> > > > > > in real need of improvement. Likewise, the import-stmt is also
> in need
> > > > > of some
> > > > > > improvement
> > > > > > since import-by-exact-revision is (and has always been) poorly
> > > > > designed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Lada
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Balazs
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Andy
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > From: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 7, 2020 2:38 PM
> > > > > > > > To: Balázs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>
> > > > > > > > Cc: andy@yumaworks.com; lhotka@nic.cz; netmod@ietf.org
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a
> module
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > needed as
> > > > > > > > import-only or as implemented
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I agree w/ Andy and others that we should not add this to the
> > > > > import's
> > > > > > > > description.  I don't think this kind of conformance text
> belongs
> > > > > to the
> > > > > > > > import's description.  If you think it is important to state
> this,
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > best
> > > > > > > > place is probably as plain text in the document itself.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > /martin
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Balázs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org
> >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > As a draft author who was asked to add text about the
> imports
> > > > > IMHO
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > *   it would be easy for me to remove the description from
> the
> > > > > import.
> > > > > > > > > Actually I really just want to know what is acceptable to
> the
> > > > > group, so
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > can proceed
> > > > > > > > > *   I also think that adding this text is in most cases
> easy and
> > > > > it does
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > need updates later.
> > > > > > > > > *   The rules in some cases might not be trivial.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > *   Imported YAMs need to be implemented if
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > *   Imported parts are included in Xpath (augment, when,
> must,
> > > > > require-
> > > > > > > > > instance)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > *   Imported YAMs do not need to be implemented if only the
> > > > > following
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > used
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > *   Types
> > > > > > > > > *   Features
> > > > > > > > > *   extensions
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > *   Ambiguous if
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > *   groupings are used
> > > > > > > > > *   if the dependency is not formally defined by YANG, but
> > > > > functionally
> > > > > > > > > needed. (E.g. notification-capabilities does not formally
> need
> > > > > YANG-
> > > > > > > > > Push
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > be implemented, however there is no sense in defining
> > > > > capabilities if
> > > > > > > YANG-
> > > > > > > > > Push is itself not implemented.)
> > > > > > > > > *   deviation ?
> > > > > > > > > *   other cases ?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Regards Balazs
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Andy
> Bierman
> > > > > > > > > Sent: 2019. december 19., csütörtök 17:23
> > > > > > > > > To: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>
> > > > > > > > > Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org>
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a
> > > > > module is
> > > > > > > > > needed as import-only or as implemented
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 8:00 AM Ladislav Lhotka <
> lhotka@nic.cz
> > > > > <mailto:
> > > > > > > > > lhotka@nic.cz> > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Thu, 2019-12-19 at 07:52 +0000, Schönwälder, Jürgen
> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 08:23:27AM +0100, Ladislav Lhotka
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > I don't see how YANG syntax defines this. If a module
> > > > > imports
> > > > > > > > > > > ietf-netconf- acm, it could be because
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > - it just uses a typedef, such as "node-instance-
> > > > > identifier", and
> > > > > > > then
> > > > > > > > > > >   ietf-netconf-acm needn't be implemented (but can be),
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > - it augments ietf-netconf-acm, which makes sense only
> if
> > > > > the latter
> > > > > > > > > > >   module is implemented.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > It it the YANG library that specifies whether a module
> is
> > > > > > > > > > > implemented or not, but the "import" statement itself
> > > > > doesn't tell
> > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > > anything.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Can we not assume that an implementor will figure out the
> > > > > difference?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > An implementor should be able to figure it out, but other
> > > > > potential
> > > > > > > > > module users may not. For example, if somebody is
> evaluating
> > > > > whether
> > > > > > > > > to use a module for their device or not, it is important
> to know
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > NACM has to be implemented (or not).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You seem to be talking about a new conformance
> documentation
> > > > > procedure
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > that attempts to solve the problem "to use modules A, B,
> and C
> > > > > > > > > together
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > to achieve some functionality X, all these conditions need
> to be
> > > > > met"..
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > (Sounds more like a problem for YANG Packages to solve)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > IMO this is a much harder problem than something that can
> be
> > > > > solved
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > with extra description-stmt text. The writer is likely to
> get it
> > > > > wrong
> > > > > > > > > or not
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > keep it up to date, so a tool to analyze the file seems
> like a
> > > > > better
> > > > > > > > > solution.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Lada
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Andy
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Or someone writes a pyang plugin to determine from the
> schema
> > > > > tree
> > > > > > > > > > the kind of imports there are (for a given set of
> features).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > /js
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Ladislav Lhotka
> > > > > > > > > Head, CZ.NIC Labs
> > > > > > > > > PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > netmod mailing list
> > > > > > > > > netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
> > > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Ladislav Lhotka
> > > > > Head, CZ.NIC Labs
> > > > > PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > netmod mailing list
> > > > > netmod@ietf.org
> > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > netmod mailing list
> > > > netmod@ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
> > >
> --
> Ladislav Lhotka
> Head, CZ.NIC Labs
> PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67
>
>