IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: [Ntp] SNTP, Old crufty software

Harlan Stenn <stenn@nwtime.org> Fri, 12 August 2022 21:21 UTC

Return-Path: <stenn@nwtime.org>
X-Original-To: ntp@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ntp@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D2F0C15791D for <ntp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 12 Aug 2022 14:21:09 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.899
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_HELO_TEMPERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N7B1Qbaz0jMW for <ntp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 12 Aug 2022 14:21:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from chessie.everett.org (chessie.everett.org [66.220.13.234]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E183AC14CF17 for <ntp@ietf.org>; Fri, 12 Aug 2022 14:20:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [10.208.75.149] (071-084-168-128.res.spectrum.com [71.84.168.128]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by chessie.everett.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4M4Gn23N2WzMP3W; Fri, 12 Aug 2022 21:20:54 +0000 (UTC)
Message-ID: <66d39918-b18c-d664-1ef5-8b2c3110cf5f@nwtime.org>
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 14:20:53 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.12.0
Content-Language: en-US
To: James Browning <jamesb.fe80@gmail.com>, NTP WG <ntp@ietf.org>
References: <20220811222515.06CF528C1CA@107-137-68-211.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net> <B3AA99BF-7AEB-46B9-A756-012A242524D2@gmail.com> <CAFTY+dAN39OutFE9WZGDr8O=iAtLAXi=jnu5ALDHkwD48xrNZw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Harlan Stenn <stenn@nwtime.org>
In-Reply-To: <CAFTY+dAN39OutFE9WZGDr8O=iAtLAXi=jnu5ALDHkwD48xrNZw@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ntp/pHi49W-eahtCUC47gaasDrOaaZI>
Subject: Re: [Ntp] SNTP, Old crufty software
X-BeenThere: ntp@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: Network Time Protocol <ntp.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ntp>, <mailto:ntp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ntp/>
List-Post: <mailto:ntp@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ntp-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ntp>, <mailto:ntp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2022 21:21:09 -0000

On 8/12/2022 4:34 AM, James Browning wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 12, 2022, 04:06 James <james.ietf@gmail.com 
> <mailto:james.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>     What (dis)incentives are there for the people and companies writing,
>     reusing, deploying code still using these protocols to work on them?
>     I'm not sure there is many given "it still just works". A well
>     defined carrot (e.g. a simpler/secure/etc protocol) or stick
>     (popular public time services ceasing support for legacy protocols)
>     are the only dimensions I can think of here.
> 
>     I'm not sure the effort of trying to -bis SNTP is as beneficial as
>     advancing newer work like Roughtime and its implementations,
>     combined with BCPs or other such guidance that dissuade future use
>     of these older protocols.
> 
> 
> We had simpler protocols that turned out to be amplifiers, I tried 
> killing off the broken crap in NTPsec before having the 'stick' taken 
> away and being beaten with it.

What exactly is the problem with SNTP?

SNTP is pretty dead simple:

- send a client request with potentially very little filled out header data
- authentication is available
- upon receipt of a valid response, set the clock to the calculated time

There's a reference implementation of SNTP in the reference 
implementation of NTP.  It's even a tear-off.

-- 
Harlan Stenn <stenn@nwtime.org>
http://networktimefoundation.org - be a member!

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email