Re: [openpgp] [PATCH] RFC4880bis: Argon2i

Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> Thu, 05 November 2015 08:25 UTC

Return-Path: <simon@josefsson.org>
X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED7231A8932 for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 00:25:36 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.551
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_SE=0.35, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CCk867kkxAsF for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 00:25:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: from duva.sjd.se (duva.sjd.se [IPv6:2001:9b0:1:1702::100]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F8591A8901 for <openpgp@ietf.org>; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 00:25:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: from latte.josefsson.org ([155.4.17.2]) (authenticated bits=0) by duva.sjd.se (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4) with ESMTP id tA58P3EH015101 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 5 Nov 2015 09:25:04 +0100
From: Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
References: <5623AA95.4060903@googlemail.com> <874mh3q3ol.fsf@alice.fifthhorseman.net> <56385818.2000606@googlemail.com> <20151103092006.3cd3e900@latte.josefsson.org> <CABtrr-W_24_CumkdGuxW4Ve=NUA_7qa0v=utbaWN0CDoodhfpw@mail.gmail.com> <CADZ5=vtV20dMua+D0O_0Hc8OAXwv0ej-VnH=B2NMj2fZK23jpQ@mail.gmail.com> <CABtrr-XVhGitJVik96Xc3kRbUH8ZoGPArdaNoKgOZtK7fPGVCQ@mail.gmail.com> <563955F4.9030607@cs.tcd.ie>
OpenPGP: id=54265E8C; url=http://josefsson.org/54265e8c.txt
X-Hashcash: 1:22:151105:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com::jujA4wA8GMJKPjSR:0k4
X-Hashcash: 1:22:151105:alex.biryukov@uni.lu::pO4yF1AJPn4qz0z5:0HtC
X-Hashcash: 1:22:151105:openpgp@ietf.org::ivfwPuqV3HSk4zmy:0v9y
X-Hashcash: 1:22:151105:ndurner@googlemail.com::/b8jTOTqA3tpPFLb:4vzP
X-Hashcash: 1:22:151105:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie::7KZE9QSe/6K7L3yR:BrIV
X-Hashcash: 1:22:151105:khovratovich@gmail.com::5nRu3rANdS2oOnRA:G2bk
X-Hashcash: 1:22:151105:dumitru-daniel.dinu@uni.lu::ri/FQlDjaSALLSKZ:JVOk
X-Hashcash: 1:22:151105:joe@cdt.org::ADGibwOERHHLz+cc:ksHB
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 09:25:02 +0100
In-Reply-To: <563955F4.9030607@cs.tcd.ie> (Stephen Farrell's message of "Wed, 4 Nov 2015 00:48:52 +0000")
Message-ID: <87mvus26qp.fsf@latte.josefsson.org>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.130014 (Ma Gnus v0.14) Emacs/24.4 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"
X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.7 at duva.sjd.se
X-Virus-Status: Clean
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/openpgp/GoKOlfi_Yz09YikLBsipzWT00Go>
Cc: Nils Durner <ndurner@googlemail.com>, Alex Biryukov <alex.biryukov@uni.lu>, "openpgp@ietf.org" <openpgp@ietf.org>, Dmitry Khovratovich <khovratovich@gmail.com>, Daniel Dinu <dumitru-daniel.dinu@uni.lu>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Joseph Lorenzo Hall <joe@cdt.org>
Subject: Re: [openpgp] [PATCH] RFC4880bis: Argon2i
X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." <openpgp.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/>
List-Post: <mailto:openpgp@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 08:25:37 -0000

We have now pushed out a -00 strawman on Argon2 in ID form:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-josefsson-argon2-00

I'm not happy with the explanation of the H' and G functions, and the
permutation P (from BLAKE2b) and the indexing section are missing.
Reference code in a higher-level language like python would be useful.
If those things, and an ASN.1 schema is added, I believe the document
would be good to go.

We need to have an IETF discussion whether we are interested in the
Argon2d non-side-channel safe variant.  The Argon2 paper implies that
the Argon2i side-channel safe variant is for "dangerous settings" where
you need side-channel safety.  For Internet use I believe we have
already passed the point where we can ignore side-channel concerns,
since they have been used in several successful attacks already.  This
could be resolved in the security considerations, but I'm concerned
about giving people too much rope here.

/Simon

Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> writes:

> Hiya,
>
> One way to handle this might be to add the winners as
> co-authors on the Internet-draft. In that case, the
> draft boilerplate text says that you're following the IETF
> IPR rules and hence would have filed an IPR declaration
> if one was needed. And if none is needed, we'd be done.
>
> I'm sure we can figure other options but the above would
> be easiest from the IETF point of view.
>
> Cheers,
> S.
>
> On 03/11/15 11:56, Joseph Lorenzo Hall wrote:
>> Congratulations btw on winning the competition!
>> 
>> Kathleen and Stephen can confirm, but I believe you don't have to do
>> anything in terms of adding any language in this case (no patent
>> issued/sought, patent pending, etc.). When/if the document is adopted by
>> the working group, the chair will request any disclosures.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Tuesday, November 3, 2015, Alex Biryukov <alex.biryukov@uni.lu> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> We were not intending to patent it, so we can add a sentence about it.
>>> Suggestions of lawyer-happy phrases are welcome.
>>>
>>> Alex
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Joseph Lorenzo Hall <joe@cdt.org
>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','joe@cdt.org');>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> At IETF94 one question that came up in trying to move quickly to
>>>> support Argon2 is the potential IPR that might be in Argon2. The code
>>>> available now [1] is CC0 which, AFAICT, doesn't have any patent grant
>>>> or implication for patents, etc., meaning the authors could still
>>>> claim something, precluding it from use without a waiver (or whatever,
>>>> IANAL)
>>>>
>>>> I'll CC the Argon2 authors (on the Argon2 spec [2]) here and see if we
>>>> can clarify any potential IPR and whether that might affect using it
>>>> in the future in OpenPGP.
>>>>
>>>> best, Joe
>>>>
>>>> [1]: https://github.com/p-h-c/phc-winner-argon2
>>>> [2]: https://password-hashing.net/argon2-specs.pdf
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 5:20 PM, Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org
>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','simon@josefsson.org');>> wrote:
>>>>> Den Tue, 3 Nov 2015 07:45:44 +0100
>>>>> skrev Re: [openpgp] [PATCH] RFC4880bis: Argon2i:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Daniel,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If we introduce this as a normative dependency for OpenPGP, though,
>>>>>>> we might also want to have an IETF RFC for Argon2.  Do you know of
>>>>>>> anyone working on such a draft?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Simon Josefsson has expressed interest in helping with that.
>>>>>> @Simon: are you working on this?
>>>>>
>>>>> I started on an Argon2 draft but after talking to the Argon2 team we
>>>>> decided to wait until Argon2 was finalized.  I suppose now is a good
>>>>> time to resume that work.  I'll put something up on gitlab.com so
>>>>> people can review and help.  If anyone wants to help, please let me
>>>>> know and we'll coordinate something.
>>>>>
>>>>> /Simon
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> openpgp mailing list
>>>>> openpgp@ietf.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openpgp@ietf.org');>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Joseph Lorenzo Hall
>>>> Chief Technologist
>>>> Center for Democracy & Technology
>>>> 1634 I ST NW STE 1100
>>>> Washington DC 20006-4011
>>>> (p) 202-407-8825
>>>> (f) 202-637-0968
>>>> joe@cdt.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','joe@cdt.org');>
>>>> PGP: https://josephhall.org/gpg-key
>>>> fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10  1607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ---------------------------------
>>> Prof. Dr. Alex Biryukov,
>>> FSTC/CSC, University of Luxembourg,
>>> 6, rue Richard Coudenhove-Kalergi,
>>> L-1359 Luxembourg-Kirchberg
>>> LUXEMBOURG
>>> Tel:  +352 46 66 44 6793
>>> Fax: +352 46 66 44 5500
>>>
>> 
>>