Re: [openpgp] [PATCH] RFC4880bis: Argon2i

Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> Thu, 05 November 2015 08:50 UTC

Return-Path: <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
X-Original-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54A9E1A008A for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 00:50:53 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.311
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.311 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ez4RbLlBuqVw for <openpgp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 00:50:50 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6768A1A00BF for <openpgp@ietf.org>; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 00:50:49 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE086BDF9; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 08:50:47 +0000 (GMT)
X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie
Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GUrVdZbnLd1J; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 08:50:43 +0000 (GMT)
Received: from [133.93.24.87] (unknown [133.93.24.87]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 27B82BDD0; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 08:50:39 +0000 (GMT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1446713443; bh=3lb0vtS366mF3ZN9nPAMgb3k4HLuVt7Iky6IodAQXwc=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Q4jVldJ6dbrnCmdYE9W9S6dzDSzGYTGlSm2z6b/vfc3/cfugzcM4RlEsHp3BCX0Vs eTq0VsbyJbv7QLiWLd3WRP9h4db5dm6fwjdJHHS+g7nxKvwezPWypXbo+Jw1HJsk/+ 1HYBFQKMZnOurdNwoT57ekcz80/ChgkWsyqwMiTY=
To: Dmitry Khovratovich <khovratovich@gmail.com>, Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org>
References: <5623AA95.4060903@googlemail.com> <874mh3q3ol.fsf@alice.fifthhorseman.net> <56385818.2000606@googlemail.com> <20151103092006.3cd3e900@latte.josefsson.org> <CABtrr-W_24_CumkdGuxW4Ve=NUA_7qa0v=utbaWN0CDoodhfpw@mail.gmail.com> <CADZ5=vtV20dMua+D0O_0Hc8OAXwv0ej-VnH=B2NMj2fZK23jpQ@mail.gmail.com> <CABtrr-XVhGitJVik96Xc3kRbUH8ZoGPArdaNoKgOZtK7fPGVCQ@mail.gmail.com> <563955F4.9030607@cs.tcd.ie> <87mvus26qp.fsf@latte.josefsson.org> <1EE8655C-787C-47CB-BFC0-4DD5B1A4300E@gmail.com>
From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url=
Message-ID: <563B185C.6080108@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 08:50:36 +0000
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <1EE8655C-787C-47CB-BFC0-4DD5B1A4300E@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/openpgp/twPGqwfKUhPj4azDl8poGYMV9jc>
Cc: Nils Durner <ndurner@googlemail.com>, Alex Biryukov <alex.biryukov@uni.lu>, "openpgp@ietf.org" <openpgp@ietf.org>, Daniel Dinu <dumitru-daniel.dinu@uni.lu>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Joseph Lorenzo Hall <joe@cdt.org>
Subject: Re: [openpgp] [PATCH] RFC4880bis: Argon2i
X-BeenThere: openpgp@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Ongoing discussion of OpenPGP issues." <openpgp.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/openpgp/>
List-Post: <mailto:openpgp@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp>, <mailto:openpgp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 08:50:53 -0000

Process-wise, I think the thing to do with this is
to handle it as a cfrg draft. (I'll forward this
there and as if they wanna adopt it.)

Cheers,
S

On 05/11/15 08:32, Dmitry Khovratovich wrote:
> Thank you, Simon!
> 
> I will review your draft and give comments ASAP
> 
> Dmitry
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On Nov 5, 2015, at 09:25, Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> wrote:
>>
>> We have now pushed out a -00 strawman on Argon2 in ID form:
>>
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-josefsson-argon2-00
>>
>> I'm not happy with the explanation of the H' and G functions, and the
>> permutation P (from BLAKE2b) and the indexing section are missing.
>> Reference code in a higher-level language like python would be useful.
>> If those things, and an ASN.1 schema is added, I believe the document
>> would be good to go.
>>
>> We need to have an IETF discussion whether we are interested in the
>> Argon2d non-side-channel safe variant.  The Argon2 paper implies that
>> the Argon2i side-channel safe variant is for "dangerous settings" where
>> you need side-channel safety.  For Internet use I believe we have
>> already passed the point where we can ignore side-channel concerns,
>> since they have been used in several successful attacks already.  This
>> could be resolved in the security considerations, but I'm concerned
>> about giving people too much rope here.
>>
>> /Simon
>>
>> Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> writes:
>>
>>> Hiya,
>>>
>>> One way to handle this might be to add the winners as
>>> co-authors on the Internet-draft. In that case, the
>>> draft boilerplate text says that you're following the IETF
>>> IPR rules and hence would have filed an IPR declaration
>>> if one was needed. And if none is needed, we'd be done.
>>>
>>> I'm sure we can figure other options but the above would
>>> be easiest from the IETF point of view.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> S.
>>>
>>>> On 03/11/15 11:56, Joseph Lorenzo Hall wrote:
>>>> Congratulations btw on winning the competition!
>>>>
>>>> Kathleen and Stephen can confirm, but I believe you don't have to do
>>>> anything in terms of adding any language in this case (no patent
>>>> issued/sought, patent pending, etc.). When/if the document is adopted by
>>>> the working group, the chair will request any disclosures.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Tuesday, November 3, 2015, Alex Biryukov <alex.biryukov@uni.lu> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> We were not intending to patent it, so we can add a sentence about it.
>>>>> Suggestions of lawyer-happy phrases are welcome.
>>>>>
>>>>> Alex
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Joseph Lorenzo Hall <joe@cdt.org
>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','joe@cdt.org');>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> At IETF94 one question that came up in trying to move quickly to
>>>>>> support Argon2 is the potential IPR that might be in Argon2. The code
>>>>>> available now [1] is CC0 which, AFAICT, doesn't have any patent grant
>>>>>> or implication for patents, etc., meaning the authors could still
>>>>>> claim something, precluding it from use without a waiver (or whatever,
>>>>>> IANAL)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll CC the Argon2 authors (on the Argon2 spec [2]) here and see if we
>>>>>> can clarify any potential IPR and whether that might affect using it
>>>>>> in the future in OpenPGP.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> best, Joe
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1]: https://github.com/p-h-c/phc-winner-argon2
>>>>>> [2]: https://password-hashing.net/argon2-specs.pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 5:20 PM, Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org
>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','simon@josefsson.org');>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Den Tue, 3 Nov 2015 07:45:44 +0100
>>>>>>> skrev Re: [openpgp] [PATCH] RFC4880bis: Argon2i:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Daniel,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If we introduce this as a normative dependency for OpenPGP, though,
>>>>>>>>> we might also want to have an IETF RFC for Argon2.  Do you know of
>>>>>>>>> anyone working on such a draft?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Simon Josefsson has expressed interest in helping with that.
>>>>>>>> @Simon: are you working on this?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I started on an Argon2 draft but after talking to the Argon2 team we
>>>>>>> decided to wait until Argon2 was finalized.  I suppose now is a good
>>>>>>> time to resume that work.  I'll put something up on gitlab.com so
>>>>>>> people can review and help.  If anyone wants to help, please let me
>>>>>>> know and we'll coordinate something.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> /Simon
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> openpgp mailing list
>>>>>>> openpgp@ietf.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openpgp@ietf.org');>
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/openpgp
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Joseph Lorenzo Hall
>>>>>> Chief Technologist
>>>>>> Center for Democracy & Technology
>>>>>> 1634 I ST NW STE 1100
>>>>>> Washington DC 20006-4011
>>>>>> (p) 202-407-8825
>>>>>> (f) 202-637-0968
>>>>>> joe@cdt.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','joe@cdt.org');>
>>>>>> PGP: https://josephhall.org/gpg-key
>>>>>> fingerprint: 3CA2 8D7B 9F6D DBD3 4B10  1607 5F86 6987 40A9 A871
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> ---------------------------------
>>>>> Prof. Dr. Alex Biryukov,
>>>>> FSTC/CSC, University of Luxembourg,
>>>>> 6, rue Richard Coudenhove-Kalergi,
>>>>> L-1359 Luxembourg-Kirchberg
>>>>> LUXEMBOURG
>>>>> Tel:  +352 46 66 44 6793
>>>>> Fax: +352 46 66 44 5500
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>