Re: [P2PSIP] Choice of STUN peer or TURN peer

"Henry Sinnreich" <hsinnrei@adobe.com> Fri, 01 February 2008 09:45 UTC

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From: "Henry Sinnreich" <hsinnrei@adobe.com>
To: "Song Yongchao" <melodysong@huawei.com>, "Cullen Jennings" <fluffy@cisco.com>, "Bruce Lowekamp" <lowekamp@sipeerior.com>
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Cc: P2PSIP Mailing List <p2psip@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [P2PSIP] Choice of STUN peer or TURN peer
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> For the simplicity, I think we should only admit peers with public
addresses
> to be the TURN servers at the first step.

This simplicity may be far too expensive in real deployments.
The effort to develop the protocol for TURN servers behind p2p friendly
NAT is fully justified IMHO.

Henry

-----Original Message-----
From: p2psip-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:p2psip-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
Of Song Yongchao
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 8:22 AM
To: 'Cullen Jennings'; 'Bruce Lowekamp'
Cc: 'P2PSIP Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [P2PSIP] Choice of STUN peer or TURN peer

See inline
> On Jan 28, 2008, at 8:01 AM, Bruce Lowekamp wrote:
> > But otherwise, the TURN
> > protocol seems to work as is.  For the purposes of a TURN server, a
> > NAT having endpoint independent mapping seems to be the only real
> > requirement on the NAT
> 
> Agree on that but ...
> I think the hard part we have not fully solved yet is how a peer that
> is thinking of being a TURN server is going to detect if this is the
> case or not.

In that case,each peer that is willing to be the TURN server must dialog
with several STUN servers with public address to detect its NAT mapping
type, only peers with public addresses or behind endpoint independent
NATs
could be TURN servers. However, STUN servers may be behind NAT either,
in
the worst case, it may be behind the same outermost NAT with the peer,
and
these STUN servers response different reflexive addresses with the
public
STUN servers. So, in that case STUN servers must be classified in to
public
addressed and non-public addressed, and the peer willing to be the TURN
server must dialog with public addressed STUN servers to detect its NAT
mapping type.

For the simplicity, I think we should only admit peers with public
addresses
to be the TURN servers at the first step.

> _______________________________________________
> P2PSIP mailing list
> P2PSIP@ietf.org
> http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip

_______________________________________________
P2PSIP mailing list
P2PSIP@ietf.org
http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip
_______________________________________________
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Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 17:59:36 +0800
From: Song Yongchao <melodysong@huawei.com>
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	'Bruce Lowekamp' <lowekamp@sipeerior.com>
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Subject: Re: [P2PSIP] Choice of STUN peer or TURN peer
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henry Sinnreich [mailto:hsinnrei@adobe.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 5:47 PM
> To: Song Yongchao; Cullen Jennings; Bruce Lowekamp
> Cc: P2PSIP Mailing List
> Subject: RE: [P2PSIP] Choice of STUN peer or TURN peer
> 
> 
> > For the simplicity, I think we should only admit peers with public
> addresses
> > to be the TURN servers at the first step.
> 
> This simplicity may be far too expensive in real deployments.
> The effort to develop the protocol for TURN servers behind p2p friendly
> NAT is fully justified IMHO.

I'm very glad to hear that, what I just said is about how a peer that is
willing to be a TURN server to detect whether it is behind a P2P friendly
NAT. Could you please provide some information about the justified
detecting?

> 
> Henry
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: p2psip-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:p2psip-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Song Yongchao
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 8:22 AM
> To: 'Cullen Jennings'; 'Bruce Lowekamp'
> Cc: 'P2PSIP Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [P2PSIP] Choice of STUN peer or TURN peer
> 
> See inline
> > On Jan 28, 2008, at 8:01 AM, Bruce Lowekamp wrote:
> > > But otherwise, the TURN
> > > protocol seems to work as is.  For the purposes of a TURN server, a
> > > NAT having endpoint independent mapping seems to be the only real
> > > requirement on the NAT
> >
> > Agree on that but ...
> > I think the hard part we have not fully solved yet is how a peer that
> > is thinking of being a TURN server is going to detect if this is the
> > case or not.
> 
> In that case,each peer that is willing to be the TURN server must dialog
> with several STUN servers with public address to detect its NAT mapping
> type, only peers with public addresses or behind endpoint independent
> NATs
> could be TURN servers. However, STUN servers may be behind NAT either,
> in
> the worst case, it may be behind the same outermost NAT with the peer,
> and
> these STUN servers response different reflexive addresses with the
> public
> STUN servers. So, in that case STUN servers must be classified in to
> public
> addressed and non-public addressed, and the peer willing to be the TURN
> server must dialog with public addressed STUN servers to detect its NAT
> mapping type.
> 
> For the simplicity, I think we should only admit peers with public
> addresses
> to be the TURN servers at the first step.
> 
> > _______________________________________________
> > P2PSIP mailing list
> > P2PSIP@ietf.org
> > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip
> 
> _______________________________________________
> P2PSIP mailing list
> P2PSIP@ietf.org
> http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip

_______________________________________________
P2PSIP mailing list
P2PSIP@ietf.org
http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip
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From: "Henry Sinnreich" <hsinnrei@adobe.com>
To: "Song Yongchao" <melodysong@huawei.com>om>,
	"Cullen Jennings" <fluffy@cisco.com>om>,
	"Bruce Lowekamp" <lowekamp@sipeerior.com>
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Subject: Re: [P2PSIP] Choice of STUN peer or TURN peer
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> how a peer that is willing to be a TURN server to detect whether it is

> behind a P2P friendly NAT.
> Could you please provide some information 

Two excellent papers deal with NAT discovery:

< draft-ietf-behave-nat-behavior-discovery-02>
<draft-wing-behave-nat-control-stun-usage-05>

These are powerful tools not only to detect the NAT behavior but also to
determine the position in multi-level NAT-ed networks.

Deployment on the net may yet reveal some more work is required for fine
tuning, 
but the above are the best I know of today and seem to be the right
approach.

My apology if I have missed some other recent relevant work.

Henry

-----Original Message-----
From: p2psip-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:p2psip-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
Of Song Yongchao
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:00 AM
To: Henry Sinnreich; 'Cullen Jennings'; 'Bruce Lowekamp'
Cc: 'P2PSIP Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [P2PSIP] Choice of STUN peer or TURN peer

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henry Sinnreich [mailto:hsinnrei@adobe.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 5:47 PM
> To: Song Yongchao; Cullen Jennings; Bruce Lowekamp
> Cc: P2PSIP Mailing List
> Subject: RE: [P2PSIP] Choice of STUN peer or TURN peer
> 
> 
> > For the simplicity, I think we should only admit peers with public
> addresses
> > to be the TURN servers at the first step.
> 
> This simplicity may be far too expensive in real deployments.
> The effort to develop the protocol for TURN servers behind p2p
friendly
> NAT is fully justified IMHO.

I'm very glad to hear that, what I just said is about how a peer that is
willing to be a TURN server to detect whether it is behind a P2P
friendly
NAT. Could you please provide some information about the justified
detecting?

> 
> Henry
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: p2psip-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:p2psip-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf
> Of Song Yongchao
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 8:22 AM
> To: 'Cullen Jennings'; 'Bruce Lowekamp'
> Cc: 'P2PSIP Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [P2PSIP] Choice of STUN peer or TURN peer
> 
> See inline
> > On Jan 28, 2008, at 8:01 AM, Bruce Lowekamp wrote:
> > > But otherwise, the TURN
> > > protocol seems to work as is.  For the purposes of a TURN server,
a
> > > NAT having endpoint independent mapping seems to be the only real
> > > requirement on the NAT
> >
> > Agree on that but ...
> > I think the hard part we have not fully solved yet is how a peer
that
> > is thinking of being a TURN server is going to detect if this is the
> > case or not.
> 
> In that case,each peer that is willing to be the TURN server must
dialog
> with several STUN servers with public address to detect its NAT
mapping
> type, only peers with public addresses or behind endpoint independent
> NATs
> could be TURN servers. However, STUN servers may be behind NAT either,
> in
> the worst case, it may be behind the same outermost NAT with the peer,
> and
> these STUN servers response different reflexive addresses with the
> public
> STUN servers. So, in that case STUN servers must be classified in to
> public
> addressed and non-public addressed, and the peer willing to be the
TURN
> server must dialog with public addressed STUN servers to detect its
NAT
> mapping type.
> 
> For the simplicity, I think we should only admit peers with public
> addresses
> to be the TURN servers at the first step.
> 
> > _______________________________________________
> > P2PSIP mailing list
> > P2PSIP@ietf.org
> > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip
> 
> _______________________________________________
> P2PSIP mailing list
> P2PSIP@ietf.org
> http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip

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Subject: Re: [P2PSIP] Choice of STUN peer or TURN peer
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henry Sinnreich [mailto:hsinnrei@adobe.com] 
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 3:06 AM
> To: Song Yongchao; Cullen Jennings; Bruce Lowekamp
> Cc: P2PSIP Mailing List; Dan Wing
> Subject: RE: [P2PSIP] Choice of STUN peer or TURN peer
> 
> > how a peer that is willing to be a TURN server to detect 
> whether it is
> 
> > behind a P2P friendly NAT.
> > Could you please provide some information 
> 
> Two excellent papers deal with NAT discovery:
> 
> < draft-ietf-behave-nat-behavior-discovery-02>
> <draft-wing-behave-nat-control-stun-usage-05>

The second paper, draft-wing-behave-nat-control-stun-usage, 
resulted in a BoF at the last IETF in Vancouver.  The consensus
at that BoF was that IETF would not be successful building
such a protocol.  Minutes of the BoF are at
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/07dec/safe.html and audio is available at
http://videolab.uoregon.edu/events/ietf/.  A mailing list, SAFE, was created
to discuss it.  Archives are at
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/safe/current/index.html

If there is interest in pursuing SAFE or the NAT Control STUN Usage, please
email safe@ietf.org or email me off-list.

-d

> These are powerful tools not only to detect the NAT behavior 
> but also to
> determine the position in multi-level NAT-ed networks.
> 
> Deployment on the net may yet reveal some more work is 
> required for fine
> tuning, 
> but the above are the best I know of today and seem to be the right
> approach.
> 
> My apology if I have missed some other recent relevant work.
> 
> Henry
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: p2psip-bounces@ietf.org 
> [mailto:p2psip-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Song Yongchao
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:00 AM
> To: Henry Sinnreich; 'Cullen Jennings'; 'Bruce Lowekamp'
> Cc: 'P2PSIP Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [P2PSIP] Choice of STUN peer or TURN peer
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Henry Sinnreich [mailto:hsinnrei@adobe.com]
> > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 5:47 PM
> > To: Song Yongchao; Cullen Jennings; Bruce Lowekamp
> > Cc: P2PSIP Mailing List
> > Subject: RE: [P2PSIP] Choice of STUN peer or TURN peer
> > 
> > 
> > > For the simplicity, I think we should only admit peers with public
> > addresses
> > > to be the TURN servers at the first step.
> > 
> > This simplicity may be far too expensive in real deployments.
> > The effort to develop the protocol for TURN servers behind p2p
> friendly
> > NAT is fully justified IMHO.
> 
> I'm very glad to hear that, what I just said is about how a 
> peer that is
> willing to be a TURN server to detect whether it is behind a P2P
> friendly
> NAT. Could you please provide some information about the justified
> detecting?
> 
> > 
> > Henry
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: p2psip-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:p2psip-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf
> > Of Song Yongchao
> > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 8:22 AM
> > To: 'Cullen Jennings'; 'Bruce Lowekamp'
> > Cc: 'P2PSIP Mailing List'
> > Subject: Re: [P2PSIP] Choice of STUN peer or TURN peer
> > 
> > See inline
> > > On Jan 28, 2008, at 8:01 AM, Bruce Lowekamp wrote:
> > > > But otherwise, the TURN
> > > > protocol seems to work as is.  For the purposes of a 
> TURN server,
> a
> > > > NAT having endpoint independent mapping seems to be the 
> only real
> > > > requirement on the NAT
> > >
> > > Agree on that but ...
> > > I think the hard part we have not fully solved yet is how a peer
> that
> > > is thinking of being a TURN server is going to detect if 
> this is the
> > > case or not.
> > 
> > In that case,each peer that is willing to be the TURN server must
> dialog
> > with several STUN servers with public address to detect its NAT
> mapping
> > type, only peers with public addresses or behind endpoint 
> independent
> > NATs
> > could be TURN servers. However, STUN servers may be behind 
> NAT either,
> > in
> > the worst case, it may be behind the same outermost NAT 
> with the peer,
> > and
> > these STUN servers response different reflexive addresses with the
> > public
> > STUN servers. So, in that case STUN servers must be classified in to
> > public
> > addressed and non-public addressed, and the peer willing to be the
> TURN
> > server must dialog with public addressed STUN servers to detect its
> NAT
> > mapping type.
> > 
> > For the simplicity, I think we should only admit peers with public
> > addresses
> > to be the TURN servers at the first step.
> > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > P2PSIP mailing list
> > > P2PSIP@ietf.org
> > > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > P2PSIP mailing list
> > P2PSIP@ietf.org
> > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip
> 
> _______________________________________________
> P2PSIP mailing list
> P2PSIP@ietf.org
> http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip

_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [P2PSIP] Choice of STUN peer or TURN peer
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: JiangXingFeng [mailto:jiang.x.f@huawei.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 11:04 PM
> To: 'Bruce Lowekamp'
> Cc: 'Dan Wing'; 'P2PSIP Mailing List'
> Subject: RE: [P2PSIP] Choice of STUN peer or TURN peer
> 
> Hi, Bruce:
> 
> Sorry for late response. See inline. 
> 
> --
> Jiang XingFeng
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > 
> > > >
> > > >   TURN client         STUN server          NAT  TURN server
> > > >        |                   |                |      |
> > > >  1.    |------give me a TURN address------->|----->|
> > > >  2.    |                   |<--STUN Request--------|
> > > >  3.    |                   |-STUN Response->|----->|
> > > >  4.    |<-----here is your TURN address------------|
> > > >
> > 
> > If we allow a TURN server to be behind a NAT, then the only change I
> > would see necessary would that 1 and 4 would have to be routed over
> > the overlay (a reload tunnel, for example).  But otherwise, the TURN
> > protocol seems to work as is.  For the purposes of a TURN server, a
> > NAT having endpoint independent mapping seems to be the only real
> > requirement on the NAT as long as the two voice endpoints 
> support ICE;
> > the connectivity checks should take care of any form of 
> filtering the
> > NAT uses.
> 
> While TURN client in question gets its relayed address from 
> the TURN server,
> it will exchange them with its peer, say B. According to the 
> connectivity
> check in ICE, B and ICE will send message to try to find 
> direct connection. 
> 
> So if B send the message destined to the relayed address 
> first, it will be
> filtered by the TURN server. Then TURN client sends a message 
> destined to
> the B's candidate, it will send the message through the TURN 
> server. But in
> the message 1 reached the TURN server in a hop-by-hop way, if 
> the message is
> sent directly to the TURN server, it will be filtered. If the 
> message is
> sent in a hop-by-hop way through the overlay, the immediate 
> peer to the STUN
> server may change over time, so the message may also be filtered. Am I
> missing something? 
> 

Can you draw a diagram of that (in PowerPoint/JPEG/GIF or ASCII)?

-d


> Regards!
> 
> JiangXingFeng
> 

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Thread-Topic: [P2PSIP] Choice of STUN peer or TURN peer
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From: "Francois Audet" <audet@nortel.com>
To: "Cullen Jennings" <fluffy@cisco.com>om>,
	"Bruce Lowekamp" <lowekamp@sipeerior.com>
Cc: P2PSIP Mailing List <p2psip@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [P2PSIP] Choice of STUN peer or TURN peer
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I'm sure this is an incredibly dumb question: but why does a peer need to
think of being a TURN server (by presumably "testing" if it is behind a NAT)?

Wouldn't it work if all peer always try to be TURN/STUN servers?
A peer would advertize a TURN server for the any public IP addresses
it has. That includes both local public IP addresses as well as
self-discovered IP addresses (gathered through STUN using other peers).

If it happens that the peer is behind a NAT that does not have an 
endpoint independent mapping, then it just won't receive any TURN/STUN packets.

The algorithm could work something like this, upon connecting to the network:

- If local IP address is public then advertize it (both STUN and TURN)
- Then, when another peer STUN server is discovered, discover if you have another public IP address
  binding (that would occur for example if you have NATing of public IP addresses)
- Then advertize new IP address (both for STUN and TURN server) on discovered IP address and port
- And so on

You just won't get any incoming STUN/TURN destined to your local IP:port if you are NATed (public to
public). Similarly, you won't get any incoming STUN/TURN destined to your discovered IP:port if the
NAT is not endpoint-independent.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: p2psip-bounces@ietf.org 
> [mailto:p2psip-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Cullen Jennings
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 20:44
> To: Bruce Lowekamp
> Cc: P2PSIP Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [P2PSIP] Choice of STUN peer or TURN peer
> 
> 
> On Jan 28, 2008, at 8:01 AM, Bruce Lowekamp wrote:
> 
> > But otherwise, the TURN
> > protocol seems to work as is.  For the purposes of a TURN server, a 
> > NAT having endpoint independent mapping seems to be the only real 
> > requirement on the NAT
> 
> Agree on that but ...
> I think the hard part we have not fully solved yet is how a 
> peer that is thinking of being a TURN server is going to 
> detect if this is the case or not.
> _______________________________________________
> P2PSIP mailing list
> P2PSIP@ietf.org
> http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2psip
> 
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